# Severe Hijack, about US borders, moved to pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949 "2023-08-23T01:52:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/181 "2023-08-24T00:14:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is “this one”? This _context_. You asked _what context,_ and I replied: This One. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/182 "2023-08-24T00:19:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No, I need more than that. Do you HAVE more than an accusation? AFAICT, what we have are people who are here and who have not yet presented the correct documents to authorities. Or, people who are here, claiming asylum, and whose cases have not yet been adjudicated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/183 "2023-08-24T00:19:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > AFAICT, what we have are people who are here and who have not yet presented the correct documents to authorities. Or, people who are here, claiming asylum, and whose cases have not yet been adjudicated. Are those the only two categories, to your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/184 "2023-08-24T00:26:36Z")
We have the children Trump put in cages. The families who are lied to about jobs and homes in Chicago and NY, bussed 2,000 miles and dropped on a street corner. The ones drowned in the river, or left to dehydrate in the desert. What other categories are you thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/185 "2023-08-24T00:30:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What other categories are you thinking of? You said: _“what we have are people who are here and who have not yet presented the correct documents to authorities. Or, people who are here, claiming asylum, and whose cases have not yet been adjudicated.”_ What I’m asking is: are there any who, say, entered the country illegally, and never had the correct documents and never claimed asylum? Possibly any who, perhaps, already got deported, and then came right back in? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/186 "2023-08-24T00:38:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > are there any who, say, entered the country illegally, and never had the correct documents and never claimed asylum? Possibly any who, perhaps, already got deported, and then came right back in? That’s the group who are here and haven’t yet presented the correct documents. They may not have the correct documents at all, or may have left them in their other pants, we don’t know for sure until it goes to court. Who knows, maybe that guy who was deported and came back managed to secure the documents in the meantime. How are you to know until the accusation is examined in court? That’s why we HAVE court, to take accusations and determine if they are legally supported, examine the evidence, let both sides present, and have a jury (or judge) decide. It’s why we say “innocent until proven guilty” which even applies to brown people without paperwork. They might BE guilty but our government is supposed to treat them as if they’re innocent until it’s proven. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/187 "2023-08-24T00:43:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s the group who are here and haven’t yet presented the correct documents. You know, that’s actually a decent point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/188 "2023-08-24T00:56:46Z")
What context is “this one”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/189 "2023-08-24T00:58:46Z")
That’s all there is right now, for the vast majority of those millions. The Pew Center, and maybe some other organizations, have accused millions of being undocumented. The vast majority have had no chance to defend themselves, not been tried, and likely not even had the chance to present documents or make a case as to why they should be allowed to stay. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/190 "2023-08-24T01:08:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s all there is right now, for the vast majority of those millions. The Pew Center, and maybe some other organizations, have accused millions of being undocumented. The vast majority have had no chance to defend themselves, not been tried, and likely not even had the chance to present documents or make a case as to why they should be allowed to stay You know, I’m curious. There was a time when President Obama flatly stated _“Right now, we have 11 million undocumented immigrants in America; 11 million men and women from all over the world who live their lives in the shadows. Yes, they broke the rules. They crossed the border illegally. Maybe they overstayed their visas. Those are facts. Nobody disputes them.”_ Did you, by any chance, take notice when he said that? Did you take issue with it? Do you need me to find more and more and more examples, of a more recent vintage, each as plainspokenly mundane as the rest? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/191 "2023-08-24T01:17:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “Right now, we have 11 million undocumented immigrants in America; 11 million men and women from all over the world who live their lives in the shadows. Yes, they broke the rules. They crossed the border illegally. Maybe they overstayed their visas. Those are facts. Nobody disputes them.” Perhaps we should look at the full quote: > But we all know that today, we have an immigration system that’s out of date and badly broken; a system that’s holding us back instead of helping us grow our economy and strengthen our middle class. > > Right now, we have 11 million undocumented immigrants in America; 11 million men and women from all over the world who live their lives in the shadows. Yes, they broke the rules. They crossed the border illegally. Maybe they overstayed their visas. Those are facts. Nobody disputes them. But these 11 million men and women are now here. Many of them have been here for years. And the overwhelming majority of these individuals aren’t looking for any trouble. They’re contributing members of the community. They’re looking out for their families. They’re looking out for their neighbors. They’re woven into the fabric of our lives. Context matters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/192 "2023-08-24T01:19:09Z")
Why do you keep dodging and sidestepping? Can’t you just own your own words and beliefs? You said you need more than just an accusation, in order to hate them. But that’s all there is, for the vast majority of these millions. Do you hate these millions of men, women, and children (do you really hate any children??), who have been accused (by politicians and political organizations) of being undocumented or illegal immigrants, but who have faced no trial, much less even a formal accusation of criminal wrongdoing? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/193 "2023-08-24T01:32:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why do you keep dodging and sidestepping? Can’t you just own your own words and beliefs? Man, _you’re_ the one who asked: _“How do you know there are millions of illegal aliens? I reject your premise, at least without proof.”_ Literally the only reason I’ve bothered to cite someone else’s words and beliefs was _in response to you asking for proof beyond what I’d said._ Literally the only reason I’d point you to Biden-Harris Administration stuff on [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov) referencing [“the nearly 11 million undocumented immigrants”](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/10/14/fact-sheet-the-biden-harris-administration-advances-equity-and-opportunity-for-latino-communities-across-the-country/) hereabouts would be _in reply to your request._ I’m happy to own my own words and beliefs — but you asking for proof beyond what I’m saying, and then reacting in this manner, seems to make no damn sense unless you’re simply and obviously not posting in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/194 "2023-08-24T01:45:50Z")
You’re the one who called them illegal aliens (as opposed to undocumented). Not the Pew Center, not Biden and Harris. You’re the one who implied you hated those accused of (or something more?) being undocumented or illegal immigrants. I’m trying to dig into your own beliefs. Why not just answer my questions? Again: Do you hate these millions of men, women, and children (do you really hate any children??), who have been accused (by politicians and political organizations) of being undocumented or illegal immigrants, but who have faced no trial, much less even a formal accusation of criminal wrongdoing? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/195 "2023-08-24T01:47:29Z")
FYI, it’s nonsense to assert that Democrats are less effective than Republicans at deporting people. Obama blew Trump away when you look at the numbers. Trump was putting on a show and being needlessly cruel gets people to tune in, but he was inefficient at actually getting things done because with this, like with everything else in life, he half assed it. If you actually cared about results, you’d know that Republicans say a lot of stuff about border security, but Democrats actually do the work. DHS data: [Table 39. Aliens Removed or Returned: Fiscal Years 1892 to 2019 | Homeland Security](https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2019/table39) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/196 "2023-08-24T02:04:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re the one who called them illegal aliens (as opposed to undocumented). Not the Pew Center, not Biden and Harris. And I provided you with the cite that the Biden Administration instituted _changes: “Alien” will become “noncitizen or migrant,” “illegal” will become “undocumented,” and “assimilation” will change to “integration.”_ I provided that to backstop my claim: that _that’s what undocumented means._ I call them illegal aliens; when the Biden Administration refers to undocumented immigrants, they’re referring to _the same people._ Sure, they’re choosing to gloss over the illegality that I’m emphasizing, but _the illegality is the point_ — and I know that you already know this, and that it’s silly that you pretend not to know this, and that I’m merely going through the motions of telling you what I know you know. So much of this thread has been ridiculous: everything from Smapti falsely asserting that my ancestors “were dirty filthy illegal immigrants” to Akaj asking whether I’m “aware that we currently don’t allow _any_ “legal immigration” for people coming from Mexico or Central America?” But what you’re doing here is _overplaying your part_: they’re getting stuff wrong, but you’re too clearly acting like you don’t know stuff that you know full well. _I know you’re better than this._ You’re not worth engaging with when you’re putting on this act. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/197 "2023-08-24T02:09:27Z")
Do you hate those millions of men, women, and children (do you really hate any children??), who have been accused (by politicians and political organizations) of being undocumented or illegal immigrants, but who have faced no trial, much less even a formal accusation of criminal wrongdoing? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/198 "2023-08-24T02:10:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And giving aid and comfort to illegal aliens by the million is, of course, more reprehensible still. It wasn’t illegal aliens trying to overthrow the United States government on January 6. MAGAts are a greater threat to America than illegal aliens are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/199 "2023-08-24T02:13:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you hate those millions of men, women, and children (do you really hate any children??), who have been accused (by politicians and political organizations) of being undocumented or illegal immigrants, but who have faced no trial, much less even a formal accusation of criminal wrongdoing? No, not all of them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/200 "2023-08-24T02:14:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It wasn’t illegal aliens trying to overthrow the United States government on January 6. MAGAts are a greater threat to America than illegal aliens are. Can’t one be against both? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949.md?page=11)