# Severe Hijack, about US borders, moved to pit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 23, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949 "2023-08-23T01:52:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/81 "2023-08-23T05:03:34Z")
Some people enter illegally but have the right to live in the US (some legitimate refugees, for example). Tons of people cross the border legally and overstay their visas. Those people aren’t even “undocumented,” though they have no legal right to reside in the US. Some cross the border illegally and remain illicitly. Some of that last category received an amnesty in the 1980s and are now legal residents or citizens. Some people cross the Mexican border, others the Canadian border, others come in by sea or even air. Who, exactly, is this thread talking about? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/82 "2023-08-23T05:05:41Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Who, exactly, is this thread talking about? Given the way you lay it out, I suppose I’d say — people who have no legal right to be in the US, but do so anyway? There’s probably a more elegant way of putting it, and corner cases to address, but at first blush that seems to cover the bases. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/83 "2023-08-23T05:10:01Z")
no offense but when you have dr deth pointing out that even for a conservative like him you are taking an extreme assholic position on the matter you need to take a step back and think things through ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/84 "2023-08-23T05:10:29Z")
Oh. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/85 "2023-08-23T05:14:58Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And I believe that, at present, the government has concluded that the current process will lead to even better results than using the old system And I believe the current system was devised by white racists to keep brown people out, the same way generations worth of immigration laws were written to exclude Asians and Italians and Irish and Jews and other non-WASPy peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/86 "2023-08-23T05:21:17Z")
My point was that a large number of illegal immigrants did not enter illegally, which was the original complaint. I know my own ancestors came in legally, insofar as that was a thing, but my mother overstayed and was here illegally for 30 years, and go back far enough and other ancestors weren’t immigrants so much as invaders and colonizers—hardly civilized behaviour, but that’s what founded the country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/87 "2023-08-23T05:27:24Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > My point was that a large number of illegal immigrants did not enter illegally, which was the original complaint. I’m against people entering illegally — that’s unchanged — and, as it happens, I’m also against people being here illegally without having entered illegally. (I’m also against plenty of things that, AFAICT, haven’t been mentioned yet in this thread, much like how I’m _for_ plenty of things that likewise haven’t been mentioned yet in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/88 "2023-08-23T05:35:06Z")
And yet you have offered no reason for why this should be other than that “it’s illegal”. “Because the law says so” is never a good answer unless you can explain why that law is necessary and good. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/89 "2023-08-23T06:25:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet you have offered no reason for why this should be other than that “it’s illegal”. > > “Because the law says so” is never a good answer unless you can explain why that law is necessary and good I suppose I’m on about two things: whether the law should be changed, and what we should do so long as long as the law hasn’t yet been changed. As to the former, I believe that what’s in the best interests of the country is, well, having would-be immigrants make their case as to why it’d be in the best interests of this country to grant permission; that’s why I said that stuff upthread about going case-by-case, and granting or withholding permission accordingly. And if someone doesn’t get permission, but decides to break the law and do it anyway — why, I find that reprehensible. Heck, you can cut my hair _if you get my permission,_ or tattoo me _if you get my permission_; or borrow my car _if you get my permission,_ or live in my house _if you get my permission_ — but it’s unacceptable for you to do any of that _without_ the relevant permission, because the permission is what’s crucial. And this is that multiplied by, what, the country? As to the latter, so long as someone _hasn’t_ gotten that permission and _is_ here illegally — well, look, IIRC someone upthread mentioned speed limits, and I view them the same way: maybe I want the speed limit raised on a given stretch of road, but until that changes I of course expect the law to be applied as it happens to be. Heck, maybe I want the speed limit _lowered_ on a given stretch of road, but until that day comes I of course expect people to get away with driving at what the speed limit _is_ rather than get fined for driving faster than I’d like the limit to be. And on a spectrum from Pay A Quarter For Returning A Library Book A Day Late all the way to Locked Up For The Rest Of Your Life For Murder, maybe I want to change things so people will face a harsher penalty or a lighter one, but I expect the current penalty to be applied until and unless things _are,_ uh, changed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/90 "2023-08-23T06:31:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Well, hardly by the million, but how do undocumented (they arent "illegal) aliens hurt you? > > I didn’t claim they are hurting me. Or helping me. I say they’re here _without permission._ I say they’re doing this _without consent._ I say they’re _breaking the law._ That, to me, suffices. Sometimes the alternative for them is likely a high risk of death, rape, starvation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/91 "2023-08-23T06:34:19Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And giving aid and comfort to illegal aliens by the million is, of course, more reprehensible still. How do you know there are millions of illegal aliens? I reject your premise, at least without proof. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/92 "2023-08-23T06:40:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know there are millions of illegal aliens? I reject your premise, at least without proof Well, [here’s](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/04/15/us/where-immigrants-come-from-cec/index.html) a bit from CNN, earlier this year, noting that _“The Pew Research Center’s [latest estimates](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/13/key-facts-about-the-changing-u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-population/) indicate about 10.5 million undocumented immigrants live in the United States.”_ If that doesn’t suffice, let me know what would. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/93 "2023-08-23T08:07:02Z")
Didn’t you once say that if you lived in the antebellum South you wouldn’t free a black slave, _even at absolutely no risk to yourself_, because to do so would be against the law? It seems strange that you don’t have more of an understanding of **The Other Waldo Pepper’s** position. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/94 "2023-08-23T08:08:57Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Didn’t you once say that if you lived in the antebellum South you wouldn’t free a black slave, _even at absolutely no risk to yourself_, because to do so would be against the law? Yes, I said that once. My personal beliefs about the nature of law have evolved since then. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/95 "2023-08-23T08:30:16Z")
Quick question for Waldo. What about Cuban refugees? What’s the moral difference between those who manage to make it to American soil and those who are caught by the Coast Guard at sea? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/96 "2023-08-23T08:52:58Z")
What does that have to do with “illegal aliens”? Do you believe people are guilty of a crime prior to being convicted in a court of law? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/97 "2023-08-23T08:53:41Z")
This is wonderful to hear, and I apologize for the very harsh things I said about you in years past. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/98 "2023-08-23T09:32:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Quick question for Waldo. What about Cuban refugees? What’s the moral difference between those who manage to make it to American soil and those who are caught by the Coast Guard at sea It’s [my understanding](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_feet,_dry_feet_policy#:~:text=The%20wet%20feet%2C%20dry%20feet,pursue%20residency%20a%20year%20later) that: “On January 12, 2017, [President](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) [Barack Obama](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama) announced the immediate cessation of the wet feet, dry feet policy. Since then, Cuban nationals who enter the United States illegally, regardless of whether they are intercepted on land or at sea, have been subject to removal.” And I — agree, I guess, that Cuban nationals who enter the United States illegally, regardless of whether they are intercepted at land or at sea, should be subject to removal as if there were no moral difference between the situations? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/99 "2023-08-23T09:47:50Z")
Okay, so that’s now. But what was the moral difference between those two groups _before_ the policy ended? Oh, and are you unfamiliar with the concept of requesting refugee status? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949/100 "2023-08-23T09:50:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does that have to do with “illegal aliens”? Are you seriously asking what a cite about “undocumented immigrants” (and a cite about “unauthorized immigrants”) has to do with a claim about “illegal aliens” (or, one supposes, “illegal immigrants”)? If it helps, consider [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/illegal-alien-assimilation/2021/04/19/9a2f878e-9ebc-11eb-b7a8-014b14aeb9e4_story.html) from the Washington Post, noting that the Biden administration had announced a number of changes in terminology: > [@](#): > > Among the changes: “Alien” will become “noncitizen or migrant,” “illegal” will become “undocumented,” and “assimilation” will change to “integration.” That’s what’s being referred to. There’s no mystery here. What one has to do with the other is that one _is_ the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-hijack-about-us-borders-moved-to-pit/988949.md?page=6)