# Sex Among the Hermaphrodites **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 6, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694 "2009-02-06T14:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/21 "2009-02-08T18:23:08Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, sabend. There is already an active thread about this column, so I’ll merge your thread into the older one. bibliophage moderator CCC ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/22 "2009-02-08T18:46:51Z")
> [@sabend](#): > > While I thought Cecil’s answer was generally on the mark, I did find a couple comments problematic. I’m currently a Women’s Studies student, and as part of my course work, I’ve had to study intersexuality. This is me being nitpicky; Cecil did pretty much give the right answer. > > Intersexuality is more common than one in 5,000 as Cecil says. According to Anne Fausto-Sterling in her book _Sexing the Body,_ approximately 1.7% (so, 1 or 2 people in every 100) of live births are intersexed, and this approximation is likely an underestimate due to confidentiality, denial, and ignorance. Fausto-Sterling’s numbers have been disputed, especially since she defines intersex as “any “individual who deviates from the Platonic ideal of physical dimorphism at the chromosomal, genital, gonadal, or hormonal levels”.” See: Sax, Leonard. “How common is intersex? A response to Anne Fausto-Sterling” _Journal of Sex Research_, August 2002. I shall quote from it: > [@](#): > > Using her definition of intersex as “any deviation from the Platonic ideal” (Blackless et al., 2000, p. 161), she lists all the following conditions as intersex, and she provides the following estimates of incidence for each condition (number of births per 100 live births): (a) late-onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia (LOCAH), 1.5/100; (b) Klinefelter (XXY), 0.0922/100; (c) other non-XX, non-XY, excluding Turner and Klinefelter, 0.0639/100; (d) Turner syndrome (XO), 0.0369/100; (e) vaginal agenesis, 0.0169/100; (f) classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia, 0.00779/10; (g) complete androgen insensitivity, 0.0076/100; (h) true hermaphrodites, 0.0012/100; (i) idiopathic, 0.0009/100; and (j) partial androgen insensitivity, 0.00076/100. The chief problem with this list is that the five most common conditions listed are not intersex conditions. If we examine these five conditions in more detail, we will see that there is no meaningful clinical sense in which these conditions can be considered intersex. “Deviation from the Platonic ideal” is, as we will see, not a clinically useful criterion for defining a medical condition such as intersex. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/23 "2009-02-08T18:56:55Z")
Welcome, from another WS major! This is your first, post, right? The problem with “intersexed” is defining it. Seems like, like pornography, it would be one of those “I know it when I see it” things, and what you might consider an intersexed individual might not be so categorized by me, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/24 "2009-02-08T19:06:04Z")
> [@](#): > > The child would not be a clone, due to meiosis - for each of the 26 chromosomes each sperm and egg contains a randomly selected copy of one of the parent’s two chromosomes. So the chances of a zygote forming with the same 52 chromosomes as the parent are extremely small. Isn’t that pretty much what I said? ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/25 "2009-02-09T20:17:35Z")
On the subject of chimeras, even if you smush together one female and one male embryo, you won’t get an individual with both testes and ovaries. Only the [germ cells](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_cells) respond directly to the genetic sex; the rest of the embryo (including the bulk of the gonads) senses the overall hormone mix secreted by the germ cells and picks the corresponding developmental program. In mice at least, mixed-sex chimeras are biased to be male because the androgen-driven male program overrides the female program. Oddly enough, in mice genetically male cells can make ova, so a phenotypically-female mixed-sex chimera can have offspring from either of its contributors. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_Astronaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bad\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/26 "2009-02-09T20:33:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Isn’t that pretty much what I said? Ah sorry - upon re-reading your original post I see that I read “would not only not be a clone” as “would not only be a clone.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/27 "2009-02-09T20:43:42Z")
Send in the clones! ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/28 "2009-02-09T21:11:15Z")
Well, thanks for clearing up the spelling of the word. In Villa Rica, Georgia grammar and high schools - in the early to mid 60’s - I always heard it pronounced “Morpha-Dike”. I don’t think any of us really knew what it meant: It was just another derogatory word used for someone not with the “Uberl33t”. As in, “Don’t talk to **him** , Billy! He’s a Morpha-Dike!” A “Morpha-Dike” was worse than a “FRAPP” (Frappe’?) which was someone who would fart in the bathtub and bite the bubbles as they surfaced.😛 Quasi ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/29 "2009-02-09T21:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > A “Morpha-Dike” was worse than a “FRAPP” (Frappe’?) which was someone who would fart in the bathtub and bite the bubbles as they surfaced. In Maine, 50 years ago, that was a “freeny”. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/30 "2009-02-10T01:48:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Jeffrey Eugenides’s Pulitzer Prize-winning novel _Middlesex_ is also worth a read. Another recommend of the book. Eugenides began research for a novel with an intersexed side-character and was amazed at how little researched the condition was outside of clinical circles and how much misconception there was (including his own) and thus the supporting character became the main character (Calliope Stephanides, later known as Cal Stephens). The main character (this is no spoiler as it’s pretty much on the first page) is born a girl by all visible standards (the very elderly doctor does not perform a very thorough exam) but is actually male in terms of chromosomes and hormones; his testicles are internal and he has what appears to be a vagina but isn’t. Supposedly, per Eugenides’ notes, this is the case with most people called “hermaphrodites”- they usually appear to be completely normal sexually on the surface, but their inner workings are wrong. It’s also a far more common condition than I would have thought- I forget the exact numbers, but most cities of any size would have a small community of intersexed people if statistics were reflected. The notion of the hermaphrodite with fully functioning male and female sex organs seems to be basically an invention of the sideshow ([marginally unsafe](http://curiousexpeditions.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hermaphfull.jpeg) for work poster). True intersex people are a lot more boring.😉 ---
**Author:** ![fubarassociation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b4bc9f/32.png) [@fubarassociation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubarassociation)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/31 "2009-02-10T20:03:47Z")
As another inquiry, can one identical twin develop into a different sex than the other twin? IANA geneticist, but I assume such a thing is possible. Then, if the two to have a child, wouldn’t that be the same as a non-chimera intersex person autofertilizing? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/32 "2009-02-10T20:14:24Z")
> [@](#): > > As another inquiry, can one identical twin develop into a different sex than the other twin? IANA geneticist, but I assume such a thing is possible. Even if it is possible (it’d at least be highly unlikely), at least one of them would almost certainly be sterile. As identical twins, they’d have the same set of chromosones, and while it is possible (for instance) to have XY chromosones and be phenotypically female, such individuals can’t take the female role in reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/33 "2009-02-10T20:34:56Z")
> [@fubarassociation](#): > > As another inquiry, can one identical twin develop into a different sex than the other twin? IANA geneticist, but I assume such a thing is possible. This was not a natural occurrence, but it is interesting nonetheless and tangentially related: [David Reimer-](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) one of identical twins, his penis was damaged beyond repair during a circumcision and he was raised as a girl and never told he was born a boy. He later learned the truth and was had restorative surgery, but his case is much studied by gender researchers. For understandable reasons he suffered severe depression; sadly he committed suicide at 38, his unwanted fame probably a contributing factor. (OTOH, Reimer’s identical twin brother who was raised as the correct gender also suffered depression and died by suicide, earlier than his brother.) Intriguing to me are identical twins in which one is gay and the other is not. When one identical twin is gay the other has a slightly larger probability of being gay than if one is left handed and the other is right handed (which also happens). Again, doesn’t answer your question, but is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/34 "2009-02-13T01:56:49Z")
> [@](#): > > As another inquiry, can one identical twin develop into a different sex than the other twin? IANA geneticist, but I assume such a thing is possible. Almost all identical twins occur when a fertilized egg splits into two. But it is also possible for an egg to split and then each of the two identical eggs be fertilized with different sperm, resulting in half-identical twins. They could be different sexes, because the sperm accounts for the sex of the fertilized egg. No one is sure how often this occurs, because the twins are assumed to be fraternal. ---
**Author:** ![butwhat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@butwhat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butwhat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/35 "2009-02-14T15:54:52Z")
I have heard that the occurance of hermaphrodite is quite a bit higher than most people would expect. What’s the true story on Jamie? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/36 "2009-02-14T19:29:28Z")
If you mean Jamie Lee Curtis, there’s speculation that she might be genetically male but androgen-insensitive. Don’t ask me how this rumor got started (so far as I can tell, the only evidence is that she’s never had kids), but she’s never confirmed nor denied it. Some argue that her lack of denial, despite the rumor’s prevalence, is proof that it’s true, but it could just as easily be a case of “there’s no such thing as bad publicity”, and she knows she’ll get talked about more if she doesn’t settle the question. So, maybe, but only she and her doctor know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![fubarassociation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b4bc9f/32.png) [@fubarassociation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubarassociation)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/37 "2009-02-14T19:56:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, maybe, but only she and her doctor know for sure. And hopefully her [husband](http://www.nndb.com/people/773/000028689/). ---
**Author:** ![butwhat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@butwhat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butwhat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/38 "2009-02-14T20:12:07Z")
Most herma’s have their physical appearance changed at an early age. Sometimes their other sex organs are not very apparent. I read about one that didn’t fond out she was a hermaphrodite til adulthood. Many hermaphrodites do not have a full set of both organs. I googled this once after reading the Jamie Lee story. I read someplace that she did allude to something along these lines on a talk show once. It might have been the urban legends site. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694/39 "2009-02-15T21:33:39Z")
Regarding Jamie Lee Curtis, no mention of the hermaphrodite/androgen insensitive male issue is made, but there is this comment: > [@](#): > > In regards to their adopted children, Curtis mentioned on TV show “The View” that due to a bout of scarlet fever she suffered as a child, she was left unable to bear children. So that is the official explanation for why she hasn’t had any children. Though she has adopted. Here is what Snopes has to say. > **[Jamie Lee Curtis: Male and Female?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jamie-lee-curtis/)** > > Rumor: Actress Jamie Lee Curtis was born with both male and female sex organs. Regarding the ambiguity of her name, there is this: > [@](#): > > At the time, we didn’t know ahead of time if it would be a boy or a girl, so when I was pregnant with Kelly, my best friend Jackie Gershwin said, “Why don’t you call the baby Kelly, so if it’s a girl, it works, and if it’s a boy, it works?” And she thought the same thing with Jamie. The babies were named before they were born because Jackie said, “This way, we don’t have to worry about it!” -Statement from Janet Leigh, Jamie Lee Curtis’s mother It is conceivable this is a cover story, but given that Jamie’s older sister is Kelly, that strongly enforces that this explanation is true, that Janet and Tony named the children before birth (and before they could know the child’s gender). Therefore, the name ambiguity has been explained without supporting the idea that Jamie was intersex. I also like this comment from Snopes. > [@](#): > > It is a telling commentary on the skewed importance we give any matter relating to sexuality that this rumor exists at all. Numerous children come into the world less than perfectly formed, yet no stigma is attached to those who require surgery to repair a malfunctioning heart, a disorder of the digestive system, or almost any other condition unrelated to gender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-among-the-hermaphrodites/484694.md?page=1)