# Sex and Sin **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624 "2003-01-04T16:32:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/1 "2003-01-04T16:32:03Z")
Okay, I was perusing this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=154259&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) when a question popped into my mind. Why is sex a sin? Why are sin’s sins? In another thread I said that eating pork was probably a sin because, at the time it was written, it could kill you. Is sex a sin because, if you aren’t married, the potential for hurting another person exists? I can see why certain things are sins, such as other Gods, murder, and coveting (to a lesser degree), but what about the other sins? The ones that aren’t (IMHO) applicable today? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/2 "2003-01-04T18:47:49Z")
In my view, sin is not an action, but a decision — specifically, a decision to reject love. When Jesus walked into Levi’s house, He took His seat among the prostitutes, tax-collectors[sup]1[/sup], and other sinners. He ate and drank with them and told them stories. But when He walked into the Temple, He became enraged. He turned over tables, beat merchants with a stick, and chased them away, screaming that they were thieves and usurpers. It seems to me that both the prostitutes and the merchants would have predicted it would be the other way around. [sup]1[/sup] Tax collectors were mentioned liberally throughout the Gospels to indicate the scum of the earth. I often wonder why literalists don’t believe that tax collecting is a horrible sin. ---
**Author:** ![0rbytal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/65b543/32.png) [@0rbytal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0rbytal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/3 "2003-01-04T18:59:03Z")
Question **Lib** : I don’t follow…when you said : > [@](#): > > But when He walked into the Temple, He became enraged. He turned over tables, beat merchants with a stick, and chased them away, screaming that they were thieves and usurpers. are you saying that Jesus sinned by not loving the merchants, thieves, and usurpers? [sub]No attack or sarcasm intended, I find yours replies all over the SDMB very informative…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/4 "2003-01-04T19:06:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **In my view, sin is not an action, but a decision — specifically, a decision to reject love.** OK, then why is the _decision_ to have sex a sin? 😛 But in seriousness: if sin is an action or decision born of hatred or rejection of God’s love, why is consensual sex, which is (well, at least most of the time), born of love, potentially sinful? I’m particularly interested in understanding why “premarital sex” is considered sinful by most Christians. Sure, I can see adultery as sinful as “a breach of Christian contract,” but AFAIK there is no Biblical injunction barring premarital sex. (Most of the explanations I’ve heard involve the injunction in Genesis that “a man should leave his family and cleave to his [wife],” which doesn’t sound very specifically aimed against premarital sex.) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/5 "2003-01-04T19:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke \* > \*\*OK, then why is the _decision_ to have sex a sin? 😛 > \*\* It isn’t. Nowhere does the Christian church teach that merely deciding to have sex is inherently sinful. Certain types of sexual acts are sinful, but sex itself is not. Unfortunately, many critics prefer to say that the church considers sex itself to be wrong. Strawman arguments, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/6 "2003-01-04T19:14:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 0rbytal \* > \*\*Question **Lib** : > > I don’t follow…when you said : are you saying that Jesus sinned by not loving the merchants, thieves, and usurpers? > > [sub]No attack or sarcasm intended, I find yours replies all over the SDMB very informative…[/sub] \*\* No, I’m not saying that Jesus sinned. I’m saying that there is a general misunderstanding about what sin is. If you define sin as specific actions, you will have to introduce a mitigation to say that Jesus did not sin — both by joining in with the revelers at Levi’s house and by beating the merchants at the Temple. But in reality, He made the decision to love His neighbors by being a beloved guest in their home and to love His Father by cleansing His house of usurpers. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/7 "2003-01-04T19:21:00Z")
Duke wrote: > [@](#): > > But in seriousness: if sin is an action or decision born of hatred or rejection of God’s love, why is consensual sex, which is (well, at least most of the time), born of love, potentially sinful? It isn’t. Not even remotely. Sin is born in the heart. It is a decision made there to reject love. _Any_ action that manifests from that decision is sinful. Suppose a man gives a dollar to a beggar. Has he sinned? How can you judge by his action alone whether he has sinned? You can’t. If he gave the beggar money just to get him out of his life, then the decision that he made in his heart was not to love the beggar, and he therefore sinned. But if he gave the beggar money because he made the decision in his heart that he loved him, then he did not sin. Saying that certain sexual acts among consenting adults are sinful betrays a myopic comprehension of God’s command. It is impossible to love AND to sin. It is impossible. Impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/8 "2003-01-04T20:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Saying that certain sexual acts among consenting adults are sinful betrays a myopic comprehension of God’s command. It is impossible to love AND to sin. It is impossible. Impossible. \*\* So, are you saying that any sexual act, done out of love, is not a sin? This would include fellatio? Sodomy? I’d personally agree with this idea (I don’t think any sexual act can possibly be sinful), but it does seem to go against what many in the church would say. Even **JThunder** above says that certain sexual acts are sinful… are they even sinful if they are done out of love? I’m just asking out of curiosity really… I don’t personally buy into the Christian concept of sin, but I’m interested in the answer nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/9 "2003-01-04T20:27:16Z")
Correcting myself… rape is a “sin,” at least it is in my book. So I should say that any _consensual_ sexual act is not a sin to me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/10 "2003-01-04T20:34:37Z")
Avalonian wrote: > [@](#): > > So, are you saying that any [adult consensual] sexual act, done out of love, is not a sin? This would include fellatio? Sodomy? Christ’s command is to love. If this is what He has commanded, then how can sin be born of love? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/11 "2003-01-04T20:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Christ’s command is to love. If this is what He has commanded, then how can sin be born of love? 🙂 \*\* Cool by me. 🙂 It just reminds how very few Christians seem to live by Christ’s teachings… at least, they seem to find reasons to avoid that particular one. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/12 "2003-01-04T20:40:52Z")
Let’s all step back a bit and consider some definitions of terms. Here are some of mine: A **sin** is defined by a _religious_ belief, edict or tenet. In contrast, an **illegal** act would be defined by a _law._ Or a **moral** code, by a _philosophy_. Of course, these can be mixed. Some of the Ten Commandments (but not all), which define sins, are encoded in laws. There is much overlap between the Ten Commandments and many moral codes. I’ve often felt that a sin is often defined by what someone thinks is wrong, then convinces a religion to concur, automatically making it an edict from a god. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/13 "2003-01-04T20:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*Cool by me. 🙂 > > It just reminds how very few Christians seem to live by Christ’s teachings… at least, they seem to find reasons to avoid that particular one. \*\* You’re right — even though He said it over and over: > [@](#): > > A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34) > [@](#): > > By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:35) > [@](#): > > My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:12) > [@](#): > > This is my command: Love each other. (John 15:15) And in fact… > [@](#): > > Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/14 "2003-01-04T21:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d personally agree with this idea (I don’t think any sexual act can possibly be sinful), but it does seem to go against what many in the church would say. Even JThunder above says that certain sexual acts are sinful… are they even sinful if they are done out of love? I don’t know how **Lib** defines “love”, but I think for this to make any sense at all you have to define it as “a sincere and profound desire for the good of others” or something along those lines. Part of that is that an act of love can’t be for the good of a particular individual over the good of others–if someone you love murdered someone, you can’t call murdering the witness to that crime anything but a sin, even if your only reason for acting was out of love for the murderer. In the same way, any potential sex act has to be evaluated in terms of it’s repercusions on other people–spouses, possibly, and potential children, definitly. If you cannot support a child, risking creating one is not an act of love, whatever emotions you feel in your heart. In pre-modern societys, widows and orphans were a serious burden: they ate up more resources than they contributed, and in a bad year, every bite they ate was a bite that wasn’t avalible for your own wife and kids. A certain number of widows and orphans were ineveitable, but if there are too many or if hte crop fails, charity dries up and real suffering–the likes of which we are totally seperated from these days–begins. Biblical injunctions on premarital sex functioned to keep the number of widows and orphans at a level that could be supported. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/15 "2003-01-04T21:42:21Z")
**Sex** in and of itself is not a sin. Neither one’s sexuality nor one’s sex acts. What **is** sinful is the gratification of **lust** – which, as I’ve pointed out on other threads, is **not** sexual desire itself, which God deemed as “good” on the sixth day in the Genesis creation myth, but the turning of the subject of sexual desire into a “sex object” for the gratification of one’s own desires, rather than as part of an ongoing and loving relationship. Hence rape is a sin, adultery is a sin because it involves the breaking of a promise regarding one’s sex life, homosexual sodomy was termed a sin in Leviticus because it was practiced solely for self-gratification (and because it was something practiced by them evil Canaanites that the Jews were to keep themselves separate from ), and so on. Thanks to Victorian primness, most Americans have formed the conception that Christianity teaches that sex is a sin. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It’s not what you do, it’s why, how, and under what circumstances you do it, that make something a sin. And sex is no different from anything else in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/16 "2003-01-04T22:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Thanks to Victorian primness, most Americans have formed the conception that Christianity teaches that sex is a sin. \*\* In my experience, most people who identify themselves as _christians_ seem to embrace this concept also; of sexuality’s inherent sinfulness unless it is within a marriage sanctified by the christian god. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/17 "2003-01-04T23:18:13Z")
There are probably a lot of Christians who don’t talk about the fact that they are Christian. It is the fundamentalists who are more vocal, I think, and also more likely to see sex as a sin outside of marriage. Most of the Christians that I know do not believe that sex is sinful in itself. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/18 "2003-01-04T23:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*In my experience, most people who identify themselves as _christians_ seem to embrace this concept also; of sexuality’s inherent sinfulness unless it is within a marriage sanctified by the christian god. \*\* That is a far cry from saying that sex is inherently wrong. A far, far cry indeed. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/19 "2003-01-05T00:51:10Z")
The church decided that sex was sinful based on the ideas of some groups of people called the Stoics. They believed that pleasure was wrong and life was worthless. They influenced others, notably Thomas Aquintas into the idea that sex should only be in the missionary position, man-on-top, only days certain days, only with wife, only for procreation and all that good stuff. Any wants, desires, anything of the sort was lust and lust is bad. Why is lust bad? The Calvinists came along in the 1600s and said that lust is bad because it comes from the body. See, the spirit part of you is good and special, but the body part is evil and tries to get you in trouble with God. And soon came Puritans who had a lot of the same ideas and we all know how the story goes. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624/20 "2003-01-05T01:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\*The church decided that sex was sinful based on the ideas of some groups of people called the Stoics. \*\* No, they didn’t. They never said that sex itself was sinful. How many times must we point this out? And how many times will people continue to spout that ridiculous caricature of what Christianity teaches? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-and-sin/146624.md?page=2)