# Sex is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312 "2012-11-08T01:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/1 "2012-11-08T01:59:55Z")
I was raised Catholic and while I still practice it, I am most definitely a “Cafeteria Catholic” since that’s what works for me. My question is this: WHY of all the sins, especially the so-called “mortal sins” that send the sinner to hell unless he/she goes to confession first, are the SEXUAL SINS considered the “mortal sins” especially when the Bible says that there is no sin greater than any other? Why did the Catholic Church latch onto any sexual fantasy or practice outside of marriage as well as any unapproved sexual practice WITHIN the confines of marriage and make these the dreaded “mortal sins” of our times? Was this an easier way for the Catholic Church to control its members, as we are ALL SEXUAL BEINGS then it was simply easier to control us since it’s nigh impossible to NOT HAVE ILLICIT SEXUAL DESIRES, especially when the Catholic Church gives such a narrow definition about what is and is not acceptable and sinful? I know that St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas had a lot of influence in these areas, but I don’t know why these two particular saints obsessed over sexuality in the way that they allegedly did. Any thoughts that are NOT peppered with anti-Catholic or religious bias? As always i am asking for a clear discussion and responses from everybody here, and that’s what I usually get. I look forward to hearing some thoughtful responses from everybody. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/2 "2012-11-08T02:10:35Z")
Thomas just built on the ideas that Augustine started. Augustine was a libertine in his youth, even siring a kid out of wedlock, and when he got religion, he was very upset with his own behavior. That was why he put such a premium on chastity. Since he was a major source of theological thought on numerous topics, his thoughts on sex got passed down and expanded upon with his thoughts on other sins, on grace, on salvation, etc. > [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > . . . as well as any unapproved sexual practice WITHIN the confines of marriage. . . Do you have an example? Aside from _coitus interruptus_, multiple partners, (and, probably, sadism), I can’t think of any practices that are prohibited by church teachings. ETA: Sexual sins really are not considered worse than other sins. The early church, for example, had special rules regarding murder, adultery (betraying one’s spouse), and apostasy, but did not single out fornication for special notice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/3 "2012-11-08T02:15:31Z")
Sex isn’t a mortal sin in the Catholic church. Certain sexual sins (like other sins) can be mortal if they’re of a grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and complete consent. Those are the three things that together, make a sin mortal. Those aren’t just sexual things, though. All sorts of sins can be mortal. Not paying an employee what you owe him can be a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. As to why some sins are mortal and others aren’t, the Catholic position is that all sins offend God and hurt our relationship with him, but some sins (the mortal sins) are a deliberate rejection of God, while others, especially those committed in ignorance or through carelessness (the venial sins) are a result of our flawed nature falling short of what God wants us to do. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/4 "2012-11-08T02:18:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you have an example? Aside from _coitus interruptus_, multiple partners, (and, probably, sadism), I can’t think of any practices that are prohibited by church teachings. Sodomy, even between spouses? Marital rape, I guess (although most people probably would agree with the Catholic church there)? Mutual masturbation? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/5 "2012-11-08T02:18:49Z")
I was also taught that a mortal sin builds upon itself, widening the gap between man and God. An individual might recover, on his own, from a venial sin, but cannot recover without assistance from a mortal one. A mortal sin induces cover-ups, excuses, rationalization, and further sin, in a cascade of badness that is out of the control of the individual sinner. It’s a “gift that keeps on giving.” I don’t know if this is official doctrine…but it was what I was taught. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/6 "2012-11-08T02:19:54Z")
I’m not at all religious, but I will say this: even in this day and age, the most evil act commonly done by otherwise decent people is creating children they can’t care for because they lack the emotional and/or financial resources to properly do so. I’ve never had to fight the temptation to hit someone, let alone murder them, but I’ve had to fight the temptation to risk making a baby. In societies where the resources were stretched a thousand times thinner than they are in the Western world today, and where there is no access to reliable birth control? I can see why you’d consider casual baby-making–or the risk of it–a mortal sin. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/7 "2012-11-08T03:55:39Z")
Then go to a motel. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/8 "2012-11-08T04:15:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sodomy, even between spouses? Marital rape, I guess (although most people probably would agree with the Catholic church there)? Mutual masturbation? Many, (not all), theologians would hold that every incident of sodomy or mutual masturbation that ended in ejaculation would fall into the category of _coitus interruptus_, but I know of no prohibition against either act, in and of themselves. Given that the topic would appear to be sexual acts in which both spouses agreed to participate, rape would be outside those bounds. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/9 "2012-11-08T04:41:01Z")
One of my earlier memories of pre-Vatican II Catholic sex education\* was being told that sexual intercourse between a married couple outside the woman’s fertile period was sinful. Only a venial sin, mind you — your milk bottle only got a few spots — but sinful nonetheless. Since procreation was deemed at the time to be the be-all-and-end-all of sex, I suppose it made a strange kind of sense. Somewhere along the line that outlook changed (a process that doubtless involved a good deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth), and non-procreative sex became acceptable as a means of strengthening the couple’s marital bond. I suppose a hot&sweaty quickie-against-the-wall is still _verboten_, though. \*Yes, I know, the phrase “military intelligence” occurred to me too. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/10 "2012-11-08T05:05:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Thomas just built on the ideas that Augustine started. > Augustine was a libertine in his youth, even siring a kid out of wedlock, and when he got religion, he was very upset with his own behavior. That was why he put such a premium on chastity. Since he was a major source of theological thought on numerous topics, his thoughts on sex got passed down and expanded upon with his thoughts on other sins, on grace, on salvation, etc. > Do you have an example? Aside from _coitus interruptus_, multiple partners, (and, probably, sadism), I can’t think of any practices that are prohibited by church teachings. > > ETA: Sexual sins really are not considered worse than other sins. The early church, for example, had special rules regarding murder, adultery (betraying one’s spouse), and apostasy, but did not single out fornication for special notice. Last I heard during my catechism classes (admittedly back in the 1970s), ANY sexual act between a husband and wife MUST NOT involve artificial birth control and if it does then according to the Catholic Church then YES that is a mortal sin. Now we could argue that such a teaching does not stop married Catholic couples from practicing birth control, but that’s another discussion entirely. The fact is the Catholic Church considers any sex that is not expressly for procreative purposes within the confines of a marriage to be a mortal sin. This includes mutual masturbation, oral, anal, whatever. While all those things are allowed as foreplay, according to the Catholic Church a sex act MUST END UP being for procreative purposes ONLY. So yes, I do have examples. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/11 "2012-11-08T05:07:19Z")
To all other posters here, even sexually fantasizing about or pretending to be “other people” between two spouses is a mortal sin, because in effect the couple would be lusting after other people that they are not married to ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/12 "2012-11-08T06:11:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Many, (not all), theologians would hold that every incident of sodomy or mutual masturbation that ended in ejaculation would fall into the category of _coitus interruptus_, but I know of no prohibition against either act, in and of themselves. Masturbation (although specifically outside the context of marriage) is explicitly condemned in the current catechism. > [@](#): > > By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.” Sodomy was condemned by the Catechism of Pius X: > [@](#): > > 8 Q. Which are the sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance? > A. The sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance are these four: (1) Willful murder; (2) The sin of sodomy; (3) Oppression of the poor; (4) Defrauding labourers of their wages. > > 9 Q. Why are these sins said to cry to God for vengeance? > A. These sins are said to cry to God for vengeance because the Holy Ghost says so, and because their iniquity is so great and so manifest that it provokes God to punish them with the severest chastisements. And also Aquinas: > [@](#): > > As stated above (A6,9) wherever there occurs a special kind of deformity whereby the venereal act is rendered unbecoming, there is a determinate species of lust. This may occur in two ways: First, through being contrary to right reason, and this is common to all lustful vices; secondly, because, in addition, it is contrary to the natural order of the venereal act as becoming to the human race: and this is called “the unnatural vice.” This may happen in several ways. First, by procuring pollution, without any copulation, for the sake of venereal pleasure: this pertains to the sin of “uncleanness” which some call “effeminacy.” Secondly, by copulation with a thing of undue species, and this is called “bestiality.” Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male, or female with female, as the Apostle states (Rm. 1:27): and this is called the “vice of sodomy.” Fourthly, by not observing the natural manner of copulation, either as to undue means, or as to other monstrous and bestial manners of copulation. . . . > > In every genus, worst of all is the corruption of the principle on which the rest depend. Now the principles of reason are those things that are according to nature, because reason presupposes things as determined by nature, before disposing of other things according as it is fitting. This may be observed both in speculative and in practical matters. Wherefore just as in speculative matters the most grievous and shameful error is that which is about things the knowledge of which is naturally bestowed on man, so in matters of action it is most grave and shameful to act against things as determined by nature. Therefore, since by the unnatural vices man transgresses that which has been determined by nature with regard to the use of venereal actions, it follows that in this matter this sin is gravest of all. After it comes incest, which, as stated above (09), is contrary to the natural respect which we owe persons related to us. > > With regard to the other species of lust they imply a transgression merely of that which is determined by right reason, on the presupposition, however, of natural principles. Now it is more against reason to make use of the venereal act not only with prejudice to the future offspring, but also so as to injure another person besides. Wherefore simple fornication, which is committed without injustice to another person, is the least grave among the species of lust. Then, it is a greater injustice to have intercourse with a woman who is subject to another’s authority as regards the act of generation, than as regards merely her guardianship. Wherefore adultery is more grievous than seduction. And both of these are aggravated by the use of violence. Hence rape of a virgin is graver than seduction, and rape of a wife than adultery. And all these are aggravated by coming under the head of sacrilege, as stated above (10, ad 2). ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/13 "2012-11-08T12:32:05Z")
As I understand it even thinking of sex was a sin, but not a mortal one. Just sexual actions out side of marriage. The thoughts and actions must be with one’s spouse. I think it goes back to Paul’s writings about even looking at a woman (not one’s wife) in a sexual way was sinful. Impure thoughts! ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/14 "2012-11-08T13:49:34Z")
The Holy Mother Church usually is about 200 years behind the times. That’s moving fast, for her. The interesting thing to me is how so many people stay Catholic and simply ignore the culturally stagnant parts of the catechism. To me, this is one of the most obvious differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. In Protestantism, if you don’t like the rules you switch denominations until you find one compatible with your values. In Catholicism you just pipe down. There’s an advantage to the latter, in that you are more likely to get to know people who are much different than yourself than in a more self-selected group. I know this has happened to me. I know several out gay couples in my parish – devout, practicing Catholics who are at least as respected and loved as anyone else. I’m quite sure that the congregation’s sexual practices are parallel to those in the larger community. How is this reconciled with the Church’s teachings? It isn’t. That’s the beauty of it. I can’t get enough of moral ambiguity I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/15 "2012-11-08T14:43:12Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > I was raised Catholic and while I still practice it, I am most definitely a “Cafeteria Catholic” since that’s what works for me. I don’t believe there is one Catholic or believer in general who cannot be called a Cafeteria X. They all pick the parts they like and ignore what they don’t ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/16 "2012-11-08T15:06:20Z")
The Catholic obsession with sex is just about 300 years old. Before that, no one cared much where you put their sweaty bits as long as you were a bit circumspect about it. Back then, it was all about heresy and doctrine. People killed and hated other people based on nuances of interpretations of Bible texts. It did have in common with the obsession about sex, though, in that heresy, like sexual desire, is a sin everyone committs or is scared of committing. As said upthread; most normal people have no urge to murder or steal. But many, many of us have the, all to human urge, to be _opinionated_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/17 "2012-11-08T15:11:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Masturbation (although specifically outside the context of marriage) is explicitly condemned in the current catechism. I don’t think he is talking about mutual masturbation within marriage. [QUOTE=OttoDaFe] One of my earlier memories of pre-Vatican II Catholic sex education\* was being told that sexual intercourse between a married couple outside the woman’s fertile period was sinful. [/QUOTE] I don’t know how old you are, but I think whoever told you that was mistaken. Intercourse outside the fertile period is the whole point of the rhythm method, and that has been defined as OK by the Roman church since at least [1853](http://twelvefruits.com/adam/contrahistory.html). IANACatholic, but several of my relatives are, including a bishop. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/18 "2012-11-08T15:21:04Z")
Maybe the way YOU do it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/19 "2012-11-08T16:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **OttoDaFe** : > > I suppose a hot&sweaty quickie-against-the-wall is still verboten, though. Why would you think that? Assuming that it’s between a married couple and that it’s penis-in-vagina, the Catholic Church would have no objection whatsoever to such an act. It’s not like there’s a rule that it has to be in a bed, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312/20 "2012-11-08T16:36:29Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Maybe the way YOU do it. Only if you do it right. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-is-a-mortal-sin-in-the-catholic-church/640312.md?page=2)