# Sex Selective Abortions - What's the scoop? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043 "2012-06-04T15:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/41 "2012-06-05T15:15:05Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Wouldn’t gender imbalance tend to reduce population growth by the immigrant groups, leaving your countries more racially pure? > > Those sharing your beliefs ought to encourage those people to abort as many fetuses as they wish. But perhaps all your countrymen don’t agree with you… If you are implying that I believe in a racially pure country then you are a fucking idiot. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Interesting. > > Outlawing gender specific abortion has two unique problems: > > 1. How are you going to enforce it? Will you ask mrs Chinese immigrant who already has four daughters if she wants an abortion because the ultrasound says she will have another daughter? Then of course she will deny that is the reason. > > 2. Should we assume that such immigrants need protection from family and cultural pressure by outlawing it? “We know you don’t want to abort, so you can tell your family that you want to be an obedient wife, but that your doctor won’t break the law here”. > It reminds me a bit about the debate about female circumcision in the Netherlands a decade ago. Everyone agreed taht is was a very bad thing that immigrant Ethiopians in Holland would want a clitorectomy for their baby daughters. Everyone wanted to protect the female babies. But how? half of the Dutch thought you should outlaw it, period. And hope that would be enough. The other half thought that for immigrants, it should be allowed for Dutch doctors to perform an absolutely minimal version of the surgery, in the hopes that would satisfy the parents and their culture. As I wrote, the legislation appears mainly to try to avoid sex-selective abortions by keeping the sex of the baby hidden until after the date at which abortion is no longer allowed. In Europe this goes from 12-24 weeks. Female circumcision is also illegal in most, if not all, European countries. France was the first to make it illegal after a girl was killed. In Denmark it is quite exceptionally also illegal to have the operation done in a third country where it may be legal. Several cases have been carried through to a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/42 "2012-06-05T15:19:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If you are implying that I believe in a racially pure country then you are a fucking idiot. Even phrased conditionally, this doesn’t belong in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/43 "2012-06-05T15:29:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Again with the cognitive dissonance. When someone says they’re opposed to killing a fetus just because it’s a girl, how can you decide _they’re_ the bigot? What about the misogynistic piece of shit who would abort their child just for being a girl? Still, wouldn’t forcing the misogynist piece of shit to bear a girl just punish the kid in the end? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/44 "2012-06-05T15:36:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t consider an abortion to be a moral issue any more than I consider getting your appendix removed to be a moral decision. > > I certainly can understand that it must be a very emotional issue for many women, but that doesn’t make it a moral issue. I think it is a moral issue. If I had a friend or relative or neighbour who did this - I’d break that relationship. To me it is unacceptable behaviour and I’ll make sure it is known. Just like racism. A behaviour that is not sanctioned by law is sanctioned by morality standards of the community. Everyone has a moral standard and it’s just a matter of degrees as many complex emotions are to a certain extent socially constructed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/45 "2012-06-05T15:39:50Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think it is a moral issue. > > If I had a friend or relative or neighbour who did this - I’d break that relationship. To me it is unacceptable behaviour and I’ll make sure it is known. Just like racism. A behaviour that is not sanctioned by law is sanctioned by morality standards of the community. > > Everyone has a moral standard and it’s just a matter of degrees as many complex emotions are to a certain extent socially constructed. OK. To the extent that morality is relative, that’s your choice. However, you need to examine the logical consistency of your moral stance. If you had a neighbor undergoing IVF, and she selected the girl embryo over the boy embryo because she wanted a girl, would you break the relationship? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/46 "2012-06-05T17:13:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I agree that they are a misogynistic piece of shit. But are they worse than the vain bitch who’d kill a fetus because it would ruin her figure, or the lying gold-digging cunt who’d kill a fetus so that her sugar-daddy doesn’t discover she’s banging the pool boy, or any other horrible reason? What makes this one in particular one that needs to be stopped? Because if one is having an abortion because one doesn’t want a _baby_, or a _pregnancy_, then there’s no gender imbalance created. You may abort what turns out to be a girl, and I may abort what turns out to be a boy, but it all comes out in the wash. Since we’re not worried about negative population growth for the purposes of this discussion, there’s absolutely no reason to prevent roughly “normal” numbers of both boy and girl pregnancies to be terminated at random; it won’t skew the gender balance of our society. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Still, wouldn’t forcing the misogynist piece of shit to bear a girl just punish the kid in the end? If the misogynist piece of shit is that concerned with getting the gender she prefers, then perhaps pregnancy isn’t the best way to create her family. My ex and I did “try” for a girl, and got one, using the Shettles method. But we did so knowing that, at best, we were merely nudging our chances in our preferred direction, and if we ended up with a boy, he’d have been loved and welcomed regardless. If a boy had been out of the question for us, we would have looked into adoption instead of pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/47 "2012-06-05T17:17:04Z")
Have a good friend who tried, with the appropriate cooperation, to have a boy five times, and missed each one. Oldest is seventeen, and they are delightful children, but he only has the one bathroom, and claims not to know what it looks like, inside. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/48 "2012-06-05T18:13:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you had a neighbor undergoing IVF, and she selected the girl embryo over the boy embryo because she wanted a girl, would you break the relationship? I’d characterize such behaviour as extremely selfish and superficial. The whole idea strikes me as unnatural in a sense that I’d wonder what are preconceived ideas and meaning people like this assign to the family and children. What’s next? I’d like a baby girl with blue eyes, blonde hair and piano virtuoso and she must not gain weight by definition – how much? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/49 "2012-06-05T18:24:42Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I’d characterize such behaviour as extremely selfish and superficial. Why? They have to pick one. What if they have 3 boys already? > [@](#): > > The whole idea strikes me as unnatural in a sense that I’d wonder what are preconceived ideas and meaning people like this assign to the family and children. What’s next? I’d like a baby girl with blue eyes, blonde hair and piano virtuoso and she must not gain weight by definition – how much? IVF, itself. doesn’t strike you as “unnatural”? Fact is, technology allows us choices we never had before. There is no reason to lock ourselves into a state where we can only make the choices we had before the technology was available. I mean, if you get right down to it, aborting a fetus because you don’t want to have a baby is “unnatural”. Still, you didn’t answer my question. Would you end the relationship with someone if they chose the sex of an IVF embryo? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/50 "2012-06-05T18:52:09Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If the misogynist piece of shit is that concerned with getting the gender she prefers, then perhaps pregnancy isn’t the best way to create her family. In which case wouldn’t you be all for an abortion for her? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/51 "2012-06-05T20:57:24Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > In which case wouldn’t you be all for an abortion for her? I’d be more in favor of \*contraception \*for her. But yes, I do see your point. This is why I’m glad I’m not actually Queen of the World, and I don’t have to make these decisions for us all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/52 "2012-06-05T22:59:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Because if one is having an abortion because one doesn’t want a _baby_, or a _pregnancy_, then there’s no gender imbalance created. You may abort what turns out to be a girl, and I may abort what turns out to be a boy, but it all comes out in the wash. Since we’re not worried about negative population growth for the purposes of this discussion, there’s absolutely no reason to prevent roughly “normal” numbers of both boy and girl pregnancies to be terminated at random; it won’t skew the gender balance of our society. I don’t really believe that the fear of gender imbalance is really what’s driving this: those cultures that have a strong preference for boys are miniscule in the US and among other groups I don’t think there is any evidence that gender preferences would be unbalanced among other populations: it seems to me that in general people with gender preferences swing both ways. And simply restricting knowledge about the sex of the fetus doesn’t make this harmless: it’s still a restriction on abortion rights. If it’s ok to withhold information from a patient to keep them from making a choice, it’s restricting choice. It’s no different than withholding information about a baby’s down syndrome. You’ve spoken quite eloquently in the past about how you feel patients should have maximum information and maximum autonomy. Willfully withholding information–and information–seems at odds with that, absent strong evidence of impending social disaster. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/53 "2012-06-05T23:26:32Z")
Oh, this asshole is quite clear that he’s using this as a wedge against abortion rights. I get that. I just think it’s boring to discuss, so I’m trying to take a position which can take some actual debate without putting me to sleep. > [@MandaJo](#): > > You’ve spoken quite eloquently in the past about how you feel patients should have maximum information and maximum autonomy. Willfully withholding information–and information–seems at odds with that, absent strong evidence of impending social disaster. You’re absolutely right. Which is why both times I’ve mentioned the theories about the social disasters that could befall us if we end up with a wildly gender imbalanced society, I’ve also said that _more research needs to be done before any form of trying to stop the “problem” is put into law_. Much, much more research, if that wasn’t clear from my previous posts. That doesn’t mean I necessarily want to wait until it’s an obvious problem here before we address it, but luckily we’ve got other countries a couple of decades ahead of us down that path that we can learn from. But you’re absolutely right that I’m a huge believer in patient information/education/autonomy. However, it’s not entirely unlimited - while I’m not \*happy \*with mandatory vaccination, I do believe that children, absent a medical contraindication, should be vaccinated whether they or their parents want to or not. I believe that because the need of the public to not be exposed to vaccine preventable illness trumps patient autonomy. IF the fears about gender imbalance are borne out by research and future events, I’d put restricting prenatal gender identification (note: NOT banning gender selective abortion; perhaps that’s picking nits, but it’s an important nit to me) in the same category as mandatory vaccination - something I’d hatehatehate on philosophical/political grounds, but support on public health/Greater Good grounds. IF, I repeat, research shows the theoretical risks to be real. See also: mandatory reporting of certain infectious illnesses, involuntary commitment for violent mental health patients and forced quarantine of noncompliant active TB patients. The well-being of the public must be weighed against the autonomy of the patient. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/54 "2012-06-06T08:54:44Z")
> [@](#): > > IF the fears about gender imbalance are borne out by research and future events, I’d put restricting prenatal gender identification (note: NOT banning gender selective abortion; perhaps that’s picking nits, but it’s an important nit to me) in the same category as mandatory vaccination - something I’d hatehatehate on philosophical/political grounds, but support on public health/Greater Good grounds. IF, I repeat, research shows the theoretical risks to be real. I’ve read several articles about the “missing” girls in India. It seems that there’s quite a few more boys born than girls, and the reason for this is a combination of sex selective abortions and female infanticide/neglect of female infants. This has gone on for some time now, long enough that it’s hard for Indian men to find mates. Sons bring in money, while daughters will go to someone else’s family. Combined with the (outlawed, but still common) tradition of demanding a dowry from a bride’s family, and it makes economic sense to kill off female fetuses or infants. Men are desperate for brides, and resort to human trafficking to get them. One would think that the dowry tradition in this country would die out. Apparently one would be wrong. > **[Female infanticide in India and China - Gendercide](https://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html)** > > Female infanticide does not only occur in India and China, but in this case study we will focus on those two countries, which are also two of the most populous countries in the world. > **[PLOS One](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/)** ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/55 "2012-06-06T10:17:25Z")
This seems like a non issue. It’s unenforceable and intrusive. Someone who would abort based on gender is probably better off not being responsible for the care of a child of that gender. If it really becomes a problem anywhere, it’s a surface symptom of a much deeper problem, and all efforts should be focused on the root issue and not on putting on band aids and putting out little fires. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/56 "2012-06-07T04:37:34Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I guess it’s a matter of language with important consequences. > > Canada does not have a law prohibiting the obtaining or procuring of an abortion for the purpose of sex selection. > > On the other hand, Canada does prohibit sex selection in reproductive technology, subject to an exception relating to disorders and disease. Do you have a cite for that comment about sex selection in reproductive technology? (Not trying to be snarky; it’s just that it’s the first I’ve heard of it.) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/57 "2012-06-07T12:46:13Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Do you have a cite for that comment about sex selection in reproductive technology? (Not trying to be snarky; it’s just that it’s the first I’ve heard of it.) I don’t have exact bill/law cite but this recent (Apr/2012) CTV article about US clinic offering sex selection option within the reproductive services states: > [@CTV](#): > > Sex selection of embryos is illegal in Canada, except to prevent a gender-linked disorder or disease. But Dr. Albert Yuzpe, co-founder of the Genesis Fertility Centre in Vancouver, says the demand for such procedures persists in Canada. [http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/20120418/gender-selection-fertility-clini-Indo-Canadians-120418/](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/20120418/gender-selection-fertility-clini-Indo-Canadians-120418/) Hope that is sufficient. Talk about "target ads’ - it is interesting that the ad is very specific to a certain immigrant community. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/58 "2012-06-07T13:39:18Z")
How do you enforce that law? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/59 "2012-06-07T18:53:13Z")
It seems to me that some of the left’s squeemishness over gender based abortion is an acknowledgement that the fetus is soemthing more thana collection of cells that happen to have human DNA. An admission that they also place some significance on the potentiality. I for one fully support all abortion, gender based or otherwise during the first trimester. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043/60 "2012-06-07T19:03:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It seems to me that some of the left’s squeemishness over gender based abortion is an acknowledgement that the fetus is soemthing more thana collection of cells that happen to have human DNA. An admission that they also place some significance on the potentiality. Possibly for _some_ leftists, but I personally find the practice a bit skeevy not because of any particular regard for the fetus, but because it represents a symptom of a creepy misogynistic culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sex-selective-abortions-whats-the-scoop/624043.md?page=4)