# Sexism and dress codes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600 "2016-05-12T12:58:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/21 "2016-05-12T18:55:00Z")
Dress code should be treated like hygiene code. Or the "you don’t swear like a longshoreman at work (unless you are a longshoreman) code. Or the “don’t make extensive personal phone calls at work” code. Or the “use proper grammar, spelling and punctuation in your emails” code. That is to say, hold people to a standard, but don’t spell it out because the standard can’t be pinned down. If you misspell something in your email, you won’t get fired. If you send emails in textspeak, you will get talked to. If you are a roofer, you are going to end up smelly after a day at work. The programmer sitting next to you should not smell like he’s been roofing all day - a shower and deodorant. But the employee manual does not spell out daily washing of hair. Its only addressed if someone has an issue. The recent college grad should figure out pretty quickly that emails use real words - if they don’t a mention is fine. Dress code should work the same way - regardless of gender. Dress appropriately for the job. People get in all sorts of trouble when they write dress codes that want high heels for women. Or "proper undergarments " (my husband went to HR with that one when he was managing and said “am I supposed to check?” They got the point and dropped it.) Or no sleeveless shirts (under a jacket they are great for businesswear - but the jacket generally stays on.) Likewise, don’t say “no sexist shirts” or “no printed shirts” - grown ups should be able to figure out that NASA shirt guy’s shirt is inappropriate at work. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/22 "2016-05-12T21:58:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Women’s profession dress can include a sleeveless dress. Trust me-- you do NOT want to see me in a sleeveless dress. Just don’t try to use the bathroom in North Carolina. Either bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/23 "2016-05-12T22:05:50Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I’ll start by giving the context that I am a professional woman who is required to dress smartly for business meetings, and I am both British and a feminist. > > As a society, we accept that there are different dress codes for men and women, and that will naturally apply to dress codes in a professional environment. In many professional environments, men are required to wear matching two piece suits, and often a tie, whereas women are mostly required to simply wear an equivalently smart outfit, which could be anything from a sleeveless shift dress to a two piece trouser suit. No tie required. That’s certainly sexist, and yet we accept it. > > So, I can’t hand on my heart say that requiring women to wear something that men are not required to wear should automatically be banned. I work in Silicon Valley, and such dress codes as there are apply equally to men and women. Everything in good order, not too much skin exposed, etc. Thanks to a bunch of billionaires who think suits are dumb, they have vanished, to the point that salesmen calling on us no longer wear suits either. Even the characters in Dilbert finally figured out that no one wears ties any more. Requiring everyone to be dressed up at business meetings not involving customers who care about these things is dumb but not sexist. Requiring that women get dressed up and not men would be. All we need are equal standards, which rarely require high heels I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/24 "2016-05-12T22:43:52Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Private businesses should be able to require whatever dress code they want. If some chick doesn’t want to get all dolled up and put her nice shoes on for a paycheck, I’m sure there are millions of others who will. The issue to me is what women are expected to do is more complicated than what men are expected to do, for the same level of business presentability. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/25 "2016-05-13T07:06:17Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > it isn’t \*more \*sexist just because in actual fact nobody finds teenage boys attractive. Former Republican Speaker of the House Denny Hastert did. And Republican Congressman Mark Doley. And a whole lot of others, going back through time to Alexander the Great (and, apparently, pretty much all the men of ancient Greece). ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/26 "2016-05-13T07:51:57Z")
Dress codes are stupid; dress codes that dont let women wear trousers are stupid stupid; dress codes that demand women wear heels are stupid stupid stupid. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/27 "2016-05-13T09:32:26Z")
Perhaps the solution is to require men to wear high heels - and makeup. I think after one day the problem would solve itself. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/28 "2016-05-13T09:39:01Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Perhaps the solution is to require men to wear high heels - and makeup. I think after one day the problem would solve itself. > **[Male receptionist sent home for not wearing codpiece](https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/male-receptionist-sent-home-for-not-wearing-codpiece-20160512108778)** > > A RECEPTIONIST at a leading City firm has been sent home without pay for refusing to wear a jewelled leather codpiece. Or - how about, you know, treating people like grown-ups and letting them decide for themselves? Crazy idea, I know, but it might catch on. ---
**Author:** ![GlowingDarkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@GlowingDarkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GlowingDarkness)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/29 "2016-05-13T13:46:13Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > [Male receptionist sent home for not wearing codpiece | The Daily Mash](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/male-receptionist-sent-home-for-not-wearing-codpiece-20160512108778) > > Or - how about, you know, treating people like grown-ups and letting them decide for themselves? > > Crazy idea, I know, but it might catch on. I asked this question to my father who is hires people in his workplace. He says that it’s not that he and others care particularly if men dress in skirts or women dress in pants but clients will have this expression on their face 😕 . In other words they risk of them reacting badly is not something most companies have the guts to face. I don’t agree with it but hey most people are okay with judging someone by their genitals instead of by their character so… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/30 "2016-05-13T13:59:55Z")
> [@GlowingDarkness](#): > > I asked this question to my father who is hires people in his workplace. He says that it’s not that he and others care particularly if men dress in skirts or women dress in pants but clients will have this expression on their face 😕 . In other words they risk of them reacting badly is not something most companies have the guts to face. > > I don’t agree with it but hey most people are okay with judging someone by their genitals instead of by their character so… If someone in a customer contact position is going to transition or cross dress, that is going to be difficult in most industries still. A customer facing job may not be the best choice for that period in time. If the company can work with them (putting them in inside sales, having them work in internal marketing) - that would be awesome, but not all companies are in a position to make that possible. But men wearing dresses and heels isn’t really what its about. In the 21st century, a woman choosing flats instead of heels isn’t going to raise eyebrows in the vast majority of professions. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/31 "2016-05-13T14:02:56Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The very concept of dress codes is awful. Make them wear uniforms or let them wear what they want. Anything in between is asking for trouble, and almost certainly sexist or discriminatory. Especially in the company gym, where everyone should be required to wear sport bras and jock straps. If we’re going to make it equal, make it totally equal. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/32 "2016-05-13T14:20:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I specifically said that I oppose government imposing rules like that. Why would you oppose that? The government steps in and stops sexism in other cases. Is it just because dress codes aren’t that important? If so, that’s fine, just teasing out your reasoning (you know me). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/33 "2016-05-13T14:20:54Z")
How much of dress codes for women are self-implemented? Do any companies require women to wear makeup or a bra? No, then why do women do it as part of their business attire? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/34 "2016-05-13T14:22:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sexism is a legitimate _ **ism** _ because there are sexes and they are different. That’s silly. You can’t justify all sexism just because the sexes are different. Should we not let women have jobs because there are two sexes? And the races are different too, so is racism legit? Differences make isms but they don’t justify them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/35 "2016-05-13T14:24:09Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Certainly as private businesses they should have the _right_ to implement dress codes, subject to whatever legal restrictions there may be regarding discrimination. And I’m suggesting that those legal restrictions regarding discrimination might include no sexism in dress codes. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/36 "2016-05-13T14:25:34Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > [Male receptionist sent home for not wearing codpiece | The Daily Mash](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/male-receptionist-sent-home-for-not-wearing-codpiece-20160512108778) > > Or - how about, you know, treating people like grown-ups and letting them decide for themselves? > > Crazy idea, I know, but it might catch on. Even WITH dress codes, plenty of grown-ups make some massively awful choices with regard to dress in the workplace. Doesn’t sound promising. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/37 "2016-05-13T14:29:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why would you oppose that? The government steps in and stops sexism in other cases. Is it just because dress codes aren’t that important? If so, that’s fine, just teasing out your reasoning (you know me). I don’t see a compelling reason for government involvement in this particular case. I’m open to being persuaded, but I don’t see it right now. “There might be an element of philosophical unfairness” doesn’t sound like a compelling reason – demonstrated and significant harm could be. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/38 "2016-05-13T15:00:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And I’m suggesting that those legal restrictions regarding discrimination might include no sexism in dress codes. If it’s a bona fide occupational qualification, like not hiring actresses to play the part of men, sexist discrimination can be perfectly legal. Certainly, most of the country still has laws against female toplessness while men legally go topless quite often in the summer. So it doesn’t necessarily seem out of line to say “our customers expect women to dress differently than men, so the separate dress code is a BFOQ for customer facing positions”. Not that I necessarily agree with that reasoning (I think bare breasts should be legal to display in public, if not full nudity, and as I said above, I think dress codes in general are a bad idea), but it seems legally sound, or at least likely to be ruled that way in the current political climate. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/39 "2016-05-13T15:13:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s silly. > > You can’t justify all sexism just because the sexes are different. Should we not let women have jobs because there are two sexes? > > And the races are different too, so is racism legit? > > Differences make isms but they don’t justify them. I didn’t say you can justify all sexism because the sexes are different. Where they are different justifies sexism. Since there are no such things as races then racism is not legit. That’s the point, most isms are fallacious in their entirety, sexism is not. And of course if you didn’t just pull out part of my post I said that there’s no basis for a difference in dress codes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600/40 "2016-05-13T15:14:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Women’s profession dress can include a sleeveless dress. Trust me-- you do NOT want to see me in a sleeveless dress. I’d suggest you just need to work out a little, but really, no one but Michelle can pull off a sleeveless dress well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-and-dress-codes/754600.md?page=3)