# Sexism: discuss **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2007, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348 "2007-07-27T08:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/121 "2007-07-29T20:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] You are represented in Congress, but I would not call you WELL represented – there’s nothing like a 50% of women in Congress – try 16 percent in the 110th Congress, even if Nancy Pelosi is the Speaker. (This is about on par with to global average of about 17% women elected to national legislatures, which isn’t saying a hell of a lot when you consider that some of the countries affecting that global average are Saudi Arabia and their ilk). You are not and have NEVER been represented in the White House, and though that may change in 2008 it’s a chicken that has yet to hatch, so you can’t count on it. And as for the Supreme Court – eight old men, five of them conservative Catholics, vs. Ruth Bader Ginsburg … you’re totally screwed there. You’ve come a long way, baby, but you’ve got a ways to go. [/QUOTE] Any country which has fifty percent women in their government is not a country I want to be a part of. I’m all for legal rights for women. But not for femininity. It ruins a country. See Sweden! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/122 "2007-07-29T21:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] You are represented in Congress, but I would not call you WELL represented – there’s nothing like a 50% of women in Congress – try 16 percent in the 110th Congress, even if Nancy Pelosi is the Speaker. (This is about on par with to global average of about 17% women elected to national legislatures, which isn’t saying a hell of a lot when you consider that some of the countries affecting that global average are Saudi Arabia and their ilk). You are not and have NEVER been represented in the White House, and though that may change in 2008 it’s a chicken that has yet to hatch, so you can’t count on it. And as for the Supreme Court – eight old men, five of them conservative Catholics, vs. Ruth Bader Ginsburg … you’re totally screwed there. You’ve come a long way, baby, but you’ve got a ways to go. [/QUOTE] I agree that women should have the same opportunities as men, as far as running for/being elected to public office. But I would question the assumption that having more women in office means other women are represented, anymore than most men are well represented by the wealthy,well connected male politicians in power. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/123 "2007-07-29T21:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] Any country which has fifty percent women in their government is not a country I want to be a part of. I’m all for legal rights for women. But not for femininity. It ruins a country. [/QUOTE] The mysoginist speaks. He is a good example of why one should be vigilant, rather than assume that equality has been achieved and that it will not backslide. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/124 "2007-07-29T21:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] I would question the assumption that having more women in office means other women are represented, anymore than most men are well represented by the wealthy,well connected male politicians in power. [/QUOTE] That illustrates the problem of the glass ceiling in the corporate world. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/125 "2007-07-29T21:27:11Z")
BTW, the mysoginist is positing the advocating of rape in another thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186) As long as there are people with attitudes such as this . . . ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/126 "2007-07-29T21:30:32Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] The mysoginist speaks. He is a good example of why one should be vigilant, rather than assume that equality has been achieved and that it will not backslide. [/QUOTE] You do not understand the nature of mysoginy. Misonginy is bias (hatred even) of women. That is entirely different to a bias against feminity. Femininity stands for risk aversion. For a bias of emotion over rationality. For a lack of decisivenes. En aggregate, women are more afflicted than men (indeed, Simon Baron Cohen argues that a complete lack of femininity leads to a perfect male mind: autism). Therefore a goverment made up of fifty percent women would most likely be more feminine. And that would be a very bad thing. Noone lives in an Athenian democracy, instead, most of us posting here live in a representative one. There are good reasons for that. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/127 "2007-07-29T21:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] BTW, the mysoginist is positing the advocating of rape in another thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186) As long as there are people with attitudes such as this . . . [/QUOTE] That’s _m **i** sog **y** nist_, please. Fingernails down the blackboard. (Same “gyn” as in “gynaecologist”.) ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/128 "2007-07-29T21:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] BTW, the mysoginist is positing the advocating of rape in another thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8829186#post8829186) As long as there are people with attitudes such as this . . . [/QUOTE] Another feminine (note that I do not say female) trait: twisting words, and using the ad hominem rather than the ad argumentum (to coin a psedo-latin phrase). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/129 "2007-07-29T21:34:44Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] You do not understand the nature of mysoginy. Misonginy is bias (hatred even) of women. That is entirely different to a bias against feminity. Femininity stands for risk aversion. For a bias of emotion over rationality. For a lack of decisivenes. [/QUOTE] Because that Maggie Thatcher was so over emotional and risk averse. It’s getting harder and harder to take your arguments seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/130 "2007-07-29T21:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] Because that Maggie Thatcher was so over emotional and risk averse. It’s getting harder and harder to take your arguments seriously. [/QUOTE] Clearly you aren’t reading them. Your example proves my point exactly! Women are more inclined to have the traits I mentioned, in the same sense that Kenyans are more likely to be good marathon runners. That doesn’t mean that we should discriminate against them. They should have every opportunity. But we _should_ fight against those traits (and lord knows Maggie, who is a personal hero of mine, fought against those traits). In the same way that we should allow Italians politicans to head the EU. But I wouldn’t want a typical Italian politican in charge of it! (Prodi can be debated another day) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/131 "2007-07-29T22:01:43Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] That’s _m **i** sog **y** nist_, please. Fingernails down the blackboard. (Same “gyn” as in “gynaecologist”.) [/QUOTE] Gynocritique, n’est pas? Sorry, my bad. I will have to write “misogynist” on the black board one-hundred times. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/132 "2007-07-29T22:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] [smart-ass]Somehow I doubt they’re using the word “Feminist”. It’s probably something in, you know, Arabic. 😉 [/s-a] But more seriously, no, of course the battle isn’t won there. But I thought the OP was American and we were talking about American gender relations. [/QUOTE] I still need the word for other purposes. Until the battle is won universally and forever, I can’t let them have it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/133 "2007-07-29T22:06:07Z")
Some of you are talking about the connotation of the word _feminist_ as if it were the actual meaning of the word. I agree with you that thanks to people like Rush Limbaugh and people others who would seek to do disservice to the feminist movement, the word _feminist_ now has negative connotations for some people. But the denotation of the word _feminist_ has remained the same. The denotation is the definition. The connotation is the implication or suggestion. Connotation varies from person to person. Denotation is what is found in the dictionary. Both can change over time, but the denotation is not likely to make a sudden change. [FromAbout.com](http://atheism.about.com/od/criticalthinking/a/meaning.htm): > [@](#): > > Connotations are often emotional in nature, and thus if they are intended, it may be for the purpose of swaying a person’s emotional reactions rather than the logical evaluation of an argument. [A good explanation of denotation and connotation](http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/English_Literature/terms/denotation.htm): > [@](#): > > Denotation refers to the literal meaning of a word, the “dictionary definition.”¨ For example, if you look up the word snake in a dictionary, you will discover that one of its denotative meanings is “any of numerous scaly, legless, sometimes venomous reptiles¡Khaving a long, tapering, cylindrical body and found in most tropical and temperate regions.” > > Connotation, on the other hand, refers to the associations that are connected to a certain word or the emotional suggestions related to that word. The connotative meanings of a word exist together with the denotative meanings. The connotations for the word snake could include evil or danger. **I am a feminist because I support equal social, economic and political rights regardless of gender.** That is all that is required to be a feminist. > [@](#): > > **Zoggie** :I hate the mentality of embracing victimhood, of viewing all men as oppressive, paternalistic enemies. I couldn’t agree more! Feminism is about empowerment, not victimhood. Both of the men that I have been married to support equal rights. I have known men who were oppressive and paternalistic, but they were not very successful in oppressing me. As for the “enemies” of feminism, that is not gender specific. > [@](#): > > I don’t like hearing it claimed that hysterical is a bigoted word on par with using Jew or Welsch to claim that someone is cheap, because the root word means uterus. I’ve actually only heard that raised by anti-feminists as a false issue. The women I know couldn’t care less about side issues like that one. (It’s like those “bra-burning” feminists. I was in college in the 1960’s and never knew about a single rally. Never knew anyone who claimed to have burned her bra or known anyone who burned her bra. (shrug) It was such a non-issue for most women. > [@](#): > > Generally, I just really hate that in spite of all the gains we’ve made (granted, there are areas that need a lot of work), there are people who still claim how we’re being oppressed by patriarchy, and if we don’t, it’s because we’ve been too brainwashed by patriarchy to even see it. You acknowledge the gains we’ve made and that work still needs to be done. That seems fair enough to me! Feel comfortable in who you are and in what you want to be. I would have chosen to be a stay-at-home-mother, but I didn’t have babies. I “adopted” all of the students that I taught in high school. Cried at every graduation. Anyway, I am traditionally feminine. I think most feminists probably are. I still think that _The Beauty Myth_ had some good points. I still wear makeup and shave my legs. I no longer think I have to weigh 105. Also, being a feminist has given me more confidence in men. I trust their willingness to open up more. I think that may be one of the reasons that despite my own liberalism, two or three of the guys that I like best at the Straight Dope are on the conservative side. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/134 "2007-07-29T22:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] Another feminine (note that I do not say female) trait: twisting words, and using the ad hominem rather than the ad argumentum (to coin a psedo-latin phrase). [/QUOTE] A personal insult against you? Not at all. Just a simple statement of fact. [QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] 2. You can kill 1 person, take their orgrans, and save the 8 people. 3. What do you do!!?!?!?!?!?!?1 And so the idea is: should we release rape videos to prevent child abuse? [/QUOTE] That is a very disturbing, misogynistic statement. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/135 "2007-07-29T22:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] A personal insult against you? Not at all. Just a simple statement of fact. [/QUOTE] This is being discussed in at least two other threads, and being a gentlemant (women can’t do that) I shall not discuss it any further in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/136 "2007-07-29T22:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] being a gentlemant (women can’t do that) [/QUOTE] Yet another deliberately inflammatory and misogynistic statement. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/137 "2007-07-29T22:14:38Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Yet another deliberately inflammatory and misogynistic statement. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but you deserved it. You’ve posted links to that thread in at least three others now, which obvously causes me a headache in defending it. And that’s only what I’m aware of through my subscribed threads. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/138 "2007-07-29T22:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] Yeah, but you deserved it. You’ve posted links to that thread in at least three others now, which obvously causes me a headache in defending it. [/QUOTE] You will have to get used to defending your statements if you stick around here. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/139 "2007-07-29T22:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] You will have to get used to defending your statements if you stick around here. [/QUOTE] But why should I defend a statement I made in one thread in many other threads? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348/140 "2007-07-29T22:44:55Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] But why should I defend a statement I made in one thread in many other threads? [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8829331&postcount=133](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8829331&postcount=133) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexism-discuss/413348.md?page=8)