# Sexual Assault - We need to expand the vocabulary **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905 "2017-12-08T14:37:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/21 "2017-12-08T19:52:36Z")
I thought the phrase “slime ball” was good enough to describe men who sexually assault women, but I’m open to other terms like "dick head " or “fuckwad” if that will help. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/22 "2017-12-08T19:57:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I thought the phrase “slime ball” was good enough to describe men who sexually assault women, but I’m open to other terms like "dick head " or “fuckwad” if that will help. “Registered sexual offender” has a good ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/23 "2017-12-08T20:26:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Social situations have more flexible rules but I’d still err on the side of keeping your mitts off co-workers. If your professional relationship blossoms into a friendship, adjust behavior accordingly. Most reasonable people understand these things in due course of living in society. > > Not the same, but I still don’t see why you need to touch. > > Not the same consequences, but the same rules apply. Different consequences by definition means different rules apply. Not everything should be a professional death sentence. Women touch me all the time when they are talking to me (they touch my hand or adjust my tie or slap my chest as they laugh if I say something funny), guys slap me on the back or put their arm over my shoulder. In some countries guys kiss you or hold your hand. At a recent holiday party I saw a guy with a Christmas tie that played Christmas carols if you pulled on it. He was pretty jazzed about the tie and asked a coworker to pull on his tie, Frosty started playing and then a woman said it was inappropriate to ask a female coworker to pull on his tie. Both the guy with the tie and the coworker seemed shamed. Was the guy harassing his coworker when he said “pull my tie?” Lets say it was very clear there was no possible romantic interest on the part of the female co-worker. Should he have to attend anti-harassment training? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/24 "2017-12-08T20:31:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > “Registered sexual offender” has a good ring to it. public urination can get you that ring in some states. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/25 "2017-12-08T20:35:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > At a recent holiday party I saw a guy with a Christmas tie that played Christmas carols if you pulled on it. He was pretty jazzed about the tie and asked a coworker to pull on his tie, Frosty started playing and then a woman said it was inappropriate to ask a female coworker to pull on his tie. Both the guy with the tie and the coworker seemed shamed. Was the guy harassing his coworker when he said “pull my tie?” Lets say it was very clear there was no possible romantic interest on the part of the female co-worker. Should he have to attend anti-harassment training? No. > [@Mrs. McGinty](#): > > What is it called when one of them squeezes my knee under the table in a meeting? Sexual harassment. > [@](#): > > What is it called when one of them strokes my back, and runs her hands down to touch my arse? Sexual assault. > [@](#): > > What is it called when one of them punches me in the arm (or kicks me in the leg) every time I say something she disagrees with? Assault. I’m sorry and angry that your environment is not validating your concerns. It’s shitty no matter who it happens to. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/26 "2017-12-08T20:41:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > public urination can get you that ring in some states. This is not quite but almost completely [untrue](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2887/is-it-indecent-exposure-if-im-visibly-naked-while-on-my-own-private-property). ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/27 "2017-12-08T20:52:41Z")
As a woman (Did the screen name give me away?) who’s been sexually assaulted, let me say that I understand the OP’s stand and think it carries some weight. To clarify without going into the horrifying details, I was sexual assaulted by a stranger: held forcibly for some time despite screams and struggles, molested but not raped, and in genuine fear for my life. That is not rape, but it’s a hell of a lot worse than a coworker’s hand on my ass, which I’ve also experienced and which is also wrong. To me, the hand-on-ass thing is the moral equivalent of a misdemeanor: forcibly restraining someone and molesting all her most intimate areas is the moral equivalent of a felony. Maybe the confusion comes from the differences between the legal definitions of assault and sexual assault. Assault generally requires force or the threat of force, whereas sexual assault simply requires unwanted touching. I think “forcible sexual assault” might be a useful phrase to distinguish between rape/attempted rape/attack-and-molestation and inappropriate and unwanted sexual contact that does not include force, but I suppose that’s controversial, too. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/28 "2017-12-08T20:55:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Different consequences by definition means different rules apply. Not everything should be a professional death sentence. I agree. Not everything should be a professional death sentence. Some things may turn out to be a Monday afternoon sensitivity training seminar in HR. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Women touch me all the time when they are talking to me (they touch my hand or adjust my tie or slap my chest as they laugh if I say something funny), guys slap me on the back or put their arm over my shoulder. In some countries guys kiss you or hold your hand. Well, you’re a stud and some may be flirting with you. Does it threaten you or make you uncomfortable? No? Awesome. Go you. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > At a recent holiday party I saw a guy with a Christmas tie that played Christmas carols if you pulled on it. He was pretty jazzed about the tie and asked a coworker to pull on his tie, Frosty started playing and then a woman said it was inappropriate to ask a female coworker to pull on his tie. Both the guy with the tie and the coworker seemed shamed. Was the guy harassing his coworker when he said “pull my tie?” Lets say it was very clear there was no possible romantic interest on the part of the female co-worker. Should he have to attend anti-harassment training? He should have to attend fashion awareness training. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/29 "2017-12-08T22:20:02Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > As a woman (Did the screen name give me away?) who’s been sexually assaulted, let me say that I understand the OP’s stand and think it carries some weight. To clarify without going into the horrifying details, I was sexual assaulted by a stranger: held forcibly for some time despite screams and struggles, molested but not raped, and in genuine fear for my life. That is not rape, but it’s a hell of a lot worse than a coworker’s hand on my ass, which I’ve also experienced and which is also wrong. To me, the hand-on-ass thing is the moral equivalent of a misdemeanor: forcibly restraining someone and molesting all her most intimate areas is the moral equivalent of a felony. > > Maybe the confusion comes from the differences between the legal definitions of assault and sexual assault. Assault generally requires force or the threat of force, whereas sexual assault simply requires unwanted touching. > > I think “forcible sexual assault” might be a useful phrase to distinguish between rape/attempted rape/attack-and-molestation and inappropriate and unwanted sexual contact that does not include force, but I suppose that’s controversial, too. And most states have degrees of sexual assault that move from some sort of misdemeanor (grabbing a woman’s ass) to felony. If you are taking about the legal thing. If you are talking about the casual talking thing - most sane women do not scream sexual assault if you tap them on the shoulder or touch their arm. They may have cultural or germophobic reasons why they don’t want to shake your hand, but they just leave theirs by their side - its awkward, but unless you are grabbing her hand, you are fine. If your hug does not involve hands on her ass or your tongue in her ear, you are probably fine (although hugs at work really need to be truly reciprocal - when in doubt, ask or just don’t). They don’t scream sexual assault if you brush against them in the elevator or the subway accidentally - as people tend to do in crowds - they do when your erection is pressed into their ass the whole ride home. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/30 "2017-12-08T22:54:57Z")
A lot of states no longer use the word rape in their laws; instead they have sexual assault: 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, 4th degree and sometimes 5th degree. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/31 "2017-12-08T22:57:34Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > As a woman (Did the screen name give me away?) who’s been sexually assaulted, let me say that I understand the OP’s stand and think it carries some weight. To clarify without going into the horrifying details, I was sexual assaulted by a stranger: held forcibly for some time despite screams and struggles, molested but not raped, and in genuine fear for my life. That is not rape, but it’s a hell of a lot worse than a coworker’s hand on my ass, which I’ve also experienced and which is also wrong. To me, the hand-on-ass thing is the moral equivalent of a misdemeanor: forcibly restraining someone and molesting all her most intimate areas is the moral equivalent of a felony. > > Maybe the confusion comes from the differences between the legal definitions of assault and sexual assault. Assault generally requires force or the threat of force, whereas sexual assault simply requires unwanted touching. > > I think “forcible sexual assault” might be a useful phrase to distinguish between rape/attempted rape/attack-and-molestation and inappropriate and unwanted sexual contact that does not include force, but I suppose that’s controversial, too. Thanks for this thoughtful and honest post and allow me to offer a (belated) welcome to the boards. I would love for this stuff to never happen to anyone again. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/32 "2017-12-08T23:24:04Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And most states have degrees of sexual assault that move from some sort of misdemeanor (grabbing a woman’s ass) to felony. If you are taking about the legal thing. > > If you are talking about the casual talking thing - most sane women do not scream sexual assault if you tap them on the shoulder or touch their arm. They may have cultural or germophobic reasons why they don’t want to shake your hand, but they just leave theirs by their side - its awkward, but unless you are grabbing her hand, you are fine. If your hug does not involve hands on her ass or your tongue in her ear, you are probably fine (although hugs at work really need to be truly reciprocal - when in doubt, ask or just don’t). They don’t scream sexual assault if you brush against them in the elevator or the subway accidentally - as people tend to do in crowds - they do when your erection is pressed into their ass the whole ride home. I was addressing the OP’s concern that the term “sexual assault” in _general discourse_ covers too broad range of severity in unwanted sexual behavior. I agree that it does. I didn’t concern myself practical considerations such as how “sane” women react to handshakes or the difference between accidental and deliberate contact, so I assume that part of your post was directed toward someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/33 "2017-12-09T16:16:52Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I was addressing the OP’s concern that the term “sexual assault” in _general discourse_ covers too broad range of severity in unwanted sexual behavior. I agree that it does. I didn’t concern myself practical considerations such as how “sane” women react to handshakes or the difference between accidental and deliberate contact, so I assume that part of your post was directed toward someone else. It was. Its because it will come up here. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/34 "2017-12-09T20:11:39Z")
One time, I was working behind a bar on a busy Friday night and this woman (who was three hundred pounds if she was an ounce) clapped her hands on my cheeks, pulled me forward, planted a big sloppy kiss on my lips and said “I’m gonna ruin you after your shift”, before winking coquettishly and sashaying away (well, as coquettishly as a river pig with a face like a war crime _can_ sashay). Everyone else behind the bar just burst out laughing. What degree of sexual assault would that be? Just so I have a frame of reference. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/35 "2017-12-09T20:17:06Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > One time, I was working behind a bar on a busy Friday night and this woman (who was three hundred pounds if she was an ounce) clapped her hands on my cheeks, pulled me forward, planted a big sloppy kiss on my lips and said “I’m gonna ruin you after your shift”, before winking coquettishly and sashaying away (well, as coquettishly as a river pig with a face like a war crime _can_ sashay). Everyone else behind the bar just burst out laughing. What degree of sexual assault would that be? Just so I have a frame of reference. Pretty serious sexual assault. It’s not rape, and she didn’t get under your clothes, but she grabbed your ass and kissed you when you were not consenting. I want to personally thank you for the gratuitous fat jokes. It really made the story much better. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/36 "2017-12-09T20:30:10Z")
OK, every can it with the off color and personal comments. Let’s keep it on a debate level, people. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/37 "2017-12-09T21:50:58Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Maybe the confusion comes from the differences between the legal definitions of assault and sexual assault. Assault generally requires force or the threat of force, whereas sexual assault simply requires unwanted touching. I was surprised to not find the term sexual battery from the same source that provided this clear explanation of [non-sexual battery.](https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/battery) That seems like a reasonable distinction from assault, with an added penalty for battery of a sexual nature. I found this portion particularly interested regarding intent: > [@](#): > > Although the contact must be intended, there is no requirement that the defendant intend to harm or injure the victim. In Tort Law, the intent must be either specific intent—the contact was specifically intended—or general intent—the defendant was substantially certain that the act would cause the contact. Sorry, Al Franken, you were wayyyy over the line. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/38 "2017-12-09T22:47:01Z")
I had a boss who was a woman. She was pretty huggy. There would be hugs with staff (usually female) on a daily bais, a round of hugs with anyone going on a business trip (“safe travels”), etc. She also gave off plenty of vibes of “being available and interested.” She also blurred corporate and private lines. “Hey, take me to that bar you hang out at” and “come by my apartment and I’ll give you some local currency for your business trip to Slovakia.” Yes, pretty much on the up and up. That said, I am 99.9% confident that had I given any kind of reciprocal sign, it would have gotten extremely unprofessional in a matter of seconds. I was and am still married, and was always extremely careful around her. And it wasn’t me. The other male colleagues that reported into her as country manager all traded notes and felt the same way. No real point except it made me a) uncomfortable b) worried it would impact my job (and probably did) c) almost paranoid careful d) careful to avoid any appearance of impropriety or ulterior motives with other female colleagues (Aside: I learned \*this \*lesson in University.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/39 "2017-12-10T20:01:36Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > This is not quite but almost completely [untrue](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2887/is-it-indecent-exposure-if-im-visibly-naked-while-on-my-own-private-property). Your cite says that it can happen. So how is it almost completely untrue? AFAICT it might be something that rarely happens because judges don’t want it to happen but… ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905/40 "2017-12-10T23:20:14Z")
Thank you, Spice Weasel. That means a lot to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-assault-we-need-to-expand-the-vocabulary/803905.md?page=3)