# Sexual Identity and the "I don't like labels" Phenomenon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085 "2013-01-13T19:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/21 "2013-01-14T04:48:44Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > Some people don’t fit well within the labels, some don’t like the assumptions people make when they hear them…for some, yes, preferences change over time, while a label like “straight” or “gay”, etc, implies unchangability. Some feel that the “identity” portion of them doesn’t make sense, that lesbian, for example, doesn’t exist as a culture they feel they belong to. It’s true that this part (“identity”) of the LGBTQ community is a modern phenomenon (as is the community itself) - these identities and how important they’re seen to be is a purely modern phenomenon. Not everyone feels that way. When you fit well within a category, rejecting them may seem silly, but when you don’t it can seem a much more thorough way of solving the problem than inventing ever more obscure labels for yourself. > > \*\*And “don’t put me in a box” can be a legitimate way to avoid pressure and expectations, freeing yourself further, on a social and psychological level, to follow your sexual and romantic feelings of the present. This is well put, and I can’t really argue with any of it. Growing up with a gay identity (and placing great importance on that identity and the community associated with it), I was very keenly aware of sexual categories and how everyone was placed within them. So to hear that these categories aren’t useful or important to some people is a bit shocking, and now I wonder how “non-labelers” view the LGBTQ community – is it also not useful or important (in a personal sense)? (Sorry for labeling you all “non-labelers”.) [QUOTE=Maeglin] He was 26 and lived in New York City. There is perhaps no time or place on earth where it has been so easy to be a young gay man. Such a post-label posture seems awfully ungrateful to the legions of gay men who did have to fight the difficult fights. [/quote] I understand this sentiment. My initial gut reaction to “I don’t like labels” is "What’s wrong with being called ‘gay’? Or ‘lesbian’? Why don’t you want to associated with these names I find so important? [QUOTE=WhyNot] For some people, it changes over time. Kinsey himself (he of the scale) claimed his scale to be only descriptive of a certain time for which the responder was answering, not a lifetime “once and done” label. I’m willing to detail my preferences. You tell me what I am: [/quote] Thanks for the post – your life is so much more interesting than mine. My response (to you, and to any person) is this: I don’t care what you call yourself. I don’t care if choose to reveal your identity or keep it private. I don’t even care if your identity accurately reflects your sexual behavior or orientation – because it’s _your_ identity. What I do care about is just _having_ a sexual identity. Is having one important to you? Was it ever? Do you associate yourself with the LGBTQ community? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/22 "2013-01-14T04:49:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Right. I am not. But I shoot from the hip. You are no maverick. When it comes to gender identity issues, you remain proudly, outspokenly ignorant, despite many genuine attempts to explain what you claim sincerely to not understand. I guess you think you’re being fresh and irreverent or something, but it’s just tired, sad and useless. Why are you even here? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/23 "2013-01-14T05:04:05Z")
> [@colander](#): > > You are no maverick. When it comes to gender identity issues, you remain proudly, outspokenly ignorant, despite many genuine attempts to explain what you claim sincerely to not understand. I guess you think you’re being fresh and irreverent or something, but it’s just tired, sad and useless. Why are you even here? ☹ Because I can and want to. Got a problem? Pit me. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/24 "2013-01-14T05:17:33Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > …We’ve had a number of threads on transgender issues recently, and I believe you made almost exactly the same “a transwoman is just a crazy gay guy with tits!” post in one of them, so it’s not like you’ve lacked opportunity to share your views on trans folks with the SDMB. It appears you forgot to mention the most salient part of my argument: a tranwoman who is still only attracted to MEN. IOW, a man, who through hormone use, grew breast but still likes MEN & his _original equipment_/genitals – minus the hormones, how is HE different from a gay guy? Confusing much? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/25 "2013-01-14T05:25:45Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > minus the hormones, how is HE different from a gay guy? :rolleyes: I made an apple pie but instead of apples, I used passionfruit. Except for the passionfruit, how is that not an apple pie? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/26 "2013-01-14T05:32:06Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > It appears you forgot to mention the most salient part of my argument: a tranwoman who is still only attracted to MEN. IOW, a man, who through hormone use, grew breast but still likes MEN & his _original equipment_/genitals – minus the hormones, how is HE different from a gay guy? A transwoman who’s attracted to men is different from a gay guy because **gay guys don’t identify as women**. > [@](#): > > Confusing much? I remain confused as to why you brought this topic up in this thread, but I am pretty clear on the distinction between “gay” and “transgender”. It’s really not that complicated. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/27 "2013-01-14T06:03:17Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > …I remain confused as to why you brought this topic up in this thread, but I am pretty clear on the distinction between “gay” and “transgender”. It’s really not that complicated. Makes two of us – confused that is. Why a guy with male organs who likes males is “transgender” is beyond me. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/28 "2013-01-14T07:02:45Z")
I suspect for similar reasons as dark skinned folks who are either not American or whose ancestors are not from Africa roll their eyes at people who call them African American. Labels are arbitrary, and frankly, while I can see you being bothered by someone preaching that there should be no labels for anyone ever, it’s ridiculous that you should feel threatened by people who choose not to label _themselves_. I see varying types (see what I did there) of non labelers anyway. Yes, there are a few phoney baloney non labelers who do it to be trendy or whatever, but they are few and far between. Then there are the ones whose behavior and/or desires has changed over time or in different contexts. Then there are those who just don’t think of gender as any more consequential than hair or eye color. I’m sure there are others. Queer and other sexual identities have been useful as a historical counterpoint to heterosexism, but I think once society becomes predominantly non phobic, clinging strongly to a particular sexual identity will no longer be seen as needed or very useful. People will still have temporary or long lasting preferences, but won’t see them as an integral concrete fixture of their identity. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/29 "2013-01-14T07:18:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Makes two of us – confused that is. Why a guy with male organs who likes males is “transgender” is beyond me. > > Cheers. You don’t really understand what it means to be transgender, do you? What do you think makes anyone transgender? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/30 "2013-01-14T07:47:33Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Can’t they just say _“bi”_ to get the same result? Sometimes men love women Sometimes men love men, And then there are bisexuals Though some just say they’re kidding themselves. La lalala lalalalala la La la lalala lala la la – Phoebe Cates ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/31 "2013-01-14T13:53:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sometimes men love women > Sometimes men love men, > And then there are bisexuals > Though some just say they’re kidding themselves. > La lalala lalalalala la > La la lalala lala la la > > – Phoebe Cates Phoebe _Buffay_ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/32 "2013-01-14T13:57:28Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Well, personally I would call that bi. But I think pussies are icky. Now, I mean. I haven’t always. So how can I be bi if I have no sexual or romantic attraction to women? > [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > So to hear that these categories aren’t useful or important to some people is a bit shocking, and now I wonder how “non-labelers” view the LGBTQ community – is it also not useful or important (in a personal sense)? (Sorry for labeling you all “non-labelers”.) “I have many friends…” sorry, I hate that phrase, but it’s true. I do have many friends in the LGBTQ community, and I go to their potlucks and I join some of their fundraisers and campaigns and take their classes and am quite comfortable…but feel like an outsider. I feel a bit like an archeologist amongst the natives, learning, always learning, but without much to teach. Individually, these people are my friends. As a group, they are Not Me. Because, total honesty here: I don’t get it. I don’t understand why the gender of the person you love (or recreate) with has become a defining characteristic that requires public proclamation. It’s truly just as strange to me as if people were rabidly curious about what style underwear I wear, and felt I was betraying myself and my fellow brief-wearers if I wasn’t public about wearing briefs, and tried to restrict my rights as a human because I wear briefs instead of thongs. It’s not that I’m ashamed of wearing briefs, I just don’t see why it matters to anyone unless they’re providing my underwear. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be “out”, I’m saying I’m not sure how we got here or why it’s important. To anyone. I don’t understand why we \*need \*to fight for rights that should just be…rights. That shouldn’t be. But it is, and since it is, I’m fighting, too. I don’t understand why people get beat up because of the gender of people they love, but they do, and as long as they do, I’m going to try to help stop that, and help repair the damage when it happens anyway. I don’t understand why it’s important to people that the general public know their sexual identity, but is obviously important, and if it’s important to people I love, I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with them and support them in being heard and represented. But no, I don’t “get it”, because: > [@](#): > > What I do care about is just _having_ a sexual identity. Is having one important to you? Was it ever? No, I guess it’s not, except that I’m curious why I don’t fit in the current labeling system. It’s only ever been important to me when I’m pressed from outside to give a label, and when, in my late 20’s, I internalized that external pressure to have a label. It bothers me when I’m asked to answer a poll, and I don’t know whether to check the “straight” or “bi” box. I want to get it right. I don’t like being wrong. But I’m starting to accept that the problem lies not with me, but with the lack of an appropriate box to check. I guess I’ll have to be content with being Other. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/33 "2013-01-14T15:26:09Z")
I can’t be wasting my good pick up lines on lesbians. My success rate is low enough as is. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/34 "2013-01-14T15:45:13Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But I think pussies are icky. So do all straight guys; we just don’t let that stop us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/35 "2013-01-14T16:16:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Right. I am not. But I shoot from the hip. That would explain why your accuracy is so poor. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/36 "2013-01-14T16:28:52Z")
I can understand this mentality and it applies to a lot of different areas, not just sexuality. The thing is, labels tend to carry baggage with them. Imagine that you’ve never met someone, if they’re described as gay or bi, that’s going to have some impact on how you imagine that person my look and act. In reality, all it “should” mean is who they’re sexually attracted to and, unless you’re planning to meet that person for that sort of reason, it shouldn’t matter at all, yet we still often learn something about someone’s personality who is described as gay. I’m straight, but there’s no assumptions about personality or appearance that go along with that. The only time I could imagine even imagine someone I’ve never met being described as straight would be if some other aspect of their personality might tend to lead someone to believe otherwise, like maybe their career choice. And so, this is where dissatisfaction with these sorts of labels come in. What if a man is gay, but otherwise doesn’t share any of those characteristics that go with that label? If someone were to meet him, they very well might surprise most people when they learned that. I could understand someone like that not liking that label, even if they’ve always been strictly gay in their sexual preference. And it gets further confused when we consider the fact that there are quite a few people who don’t fit neatly into the strict definition of that label. But really, the whole “I don’t like labels” thing, to me, is more just a rejection of the fact that we tend to have a way of compiling who a person is to a few broadbrush descriptions, often things like race, sexuality, religion, age or other group identifiers (emo, goth, hipster, metalhead, punk, etc.). I would think that one wouldn’t have much issue with a label if those stereotypes pretty accurately describe oneself, but probably would if those stereotypes don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/37 "2013-01-14T16:58:43Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I dislike it too, and I’ve known lots of people who eschew those labels. What happens is they don’t get to choose how to define themselves, but other people do the defining for them, because people always will - you just do need to categorise people. A hundred years ago, the label “lesbian” didn’t exist, except as an adjective describing things from the isle of Lesbos. Some women at the time felt that there wasn’t an adequate label to describe how they felt, and they started constructing the concept of a lesbian identity, and here we are today. Except, it turns out that there are still some people who feel that the conventional set of labels currently available are insufficient to describe themselves, and are trying to create identities that they feel suit them. These identities may or may not ever gain as much cultural traction as “lesbian” has, but I don’t think that necessarily makes them invalid - no more so than a woman in 1910 eschewing the term “sexual invert” in favor of the trendy new “lesbian” identity. > [@](#): > > My teenage daughter and her friends use the term pansexual, and I ask them if they’re attracted to aliens or something - Captain Jack Harkness is pansexual, but he lives in a world very different to the real one. > > Justifying it by saying that they’re also attracted to transgendered people is kinda insulting, since it says that trans people aren’t really men or women at all. There’s always someone who’s willing to take offense at anything, but in my experience, there’s a lot of transpeople who appreciate the term as a signal that they won’t be rejected just for being trans. Also, it indicates an attraction to people who are genderqueer, androgynous, or otherwise challenging gender norms. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/38 "2013-01-14T17:20:04Z")
> [@colander](#): > > You are no maverick. When it comes to gender identity issues, you remain proudly, outspokenly ignorant, despite many genuine attempts to explain what you claim sincerely to not understand. I guess you think you’re being fresh and irreverent or something, but it’s just tired, sad and useless. Why are you even here? ☹ This belongs in the Pit, not Great Debates. > [@RedFury](#): > > It appears you forgot to mention the most salient part of my argument: a tranwoman who is still only attracted to MEN. IOW, a man, who through hormone use, grew breast but still likes MEN & his _original equipment_/genitals – minus the hormones, how is HE different from a gay guy? > > Confusing much? This is becoming a hijack of the thread. Drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/39 "2013-01-14T17:27:08Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > My response (to you, and to any person) is this: I don’t care what you call yourself. I don’t care if choose to reveal your identity or keep it private. I don’t even care if your identity accurately reflects your sexual behavior or orientation – because it’s _your_ identity. What I do care about is just _having_ a sexual identity. Is having one important to you? Was it ever? Do you associate yourself with the LGBTQ community? I’m rather ambivalent about my own sexual identity. I tend to refer to myself with whichever label I think will be easiest for my audience to understand. If I’m debating SSM, I might refer to myself as gay, just to indicate a personal stake in the discussion. If I’m talking to a straight guy and the topic comes up, I’ll probably refer to myself as bisexual, under the assumption that he won’t understand any further categorization. If I’m talking to someone whose gay, I tend to identify as queer, which is nicely non specific. If I’m filling out a dating profile site, I’ll explain how I dislike conventional sexual identities due to their implicit acceptance of the binary gender paradigm, because if someone’s going to consider dating me, it’s only fair to warn them about the level of insufferable bullshit they’ll have to put up with. As for associating with the LGBLT community, I identify with them politically, but my social circle is largely made up of straight dudes. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085/40 "2013-01-14T18:09:12Z")
I hate labels, as I seem to get stuck with “midde-aged, educated, married, straight, white, middle-class, professional male.” You wouldn’t believe the assumptions and pigeon-holing which these carry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-identity-and-the-i-dont-like-labels-phenomenon/647085.md?page=3)