# Sexual orientation and gender identity **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614 "2018-09-01T17:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/41 "2018-09-03T22:31:23Z")
[quote=“Mumberthax, post:39, topic:820614”] This video is from a British lesbian named Magdalen Berns regarding lesbians with penises (spoiler alert; lesbians don’t have penises). I wonder what the lesbian population of this board has to say about Ms Berns’s message? [/QUOTE] If they identify as female, yes they can. Some people don’t want/can’t afford/can’t have the gender reassignment surgery. That doesn’t mean they can’t be considered the gender they identify as. And seriously…all of this smacks of a bit of homophobia on your part. You don’t want to chance sleeping with a ‘man’ in any sense of the word. How about society just does this. Love who you love. Don’t worry about what their junk looked like when they were born. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/42 "2018-09-04T00:58:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Is there any evidence that there is any widespread problem in search of this “solution”? _Crying Game_ was great drama, but really… True. In the end, the facts on the ground are that the overwhelming majority of people we’ll run into are going to be cisgender, OK with it, and present as such – whether gay or hetero or bi or asexual. And I’d prefer the people in the nonconforming groups be the ones who clue me on the proper terminology. And bears saying again, > [@](#): > > You learn if someone is a suitable partner by talking to them. Hell you learn if someone is somebody \*you can stand being around \*by talking to them. Not every encounter has to be a prelude to a hookup or to a life bond either. Besides, like **kayaker** wrote, > [@](#): > > If you’re sitting next to me at the bar and you want to discuss tattoos, dogs, IPAs, whatever, I don’t need to know your life story. …you can just have nonsexual human social interactions without having to get into deep waters. OTOH if someone honestly sets up a dating profile along the lines of “cishetmale looking for cishetfem”, that is pretty clear what is meant and is an intimate matter where individuals should be allowed a preference. ---
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/43 "2018-09-04T03:30:00Z")
[quote=“Mumberthax, post:39, topic:820614”] This video is from a British lesbian named Magdalen Berns regarding lesbians with penises (spoiler alert; lesbians don’t have penises). I wonder what the lesbian population of this board has to say about Ms Berns’s message? [/QUOTE] That I could make a YouTube video saying whatever I wanted was absolute, too, and it’d be just as valid as her right to tell me who I can consider a lesbian or not. It’s not like we have a queen or a hive mind. There are always people who’re going to go for extremist or exclusionary beliefs, even if it means not seeing their own hypocrisy. Also, while I frankly barely bothered beyond glancing (1.3k upvotes oh noes it’s an army!) it also seems to be in response to someone else’s video. A video she took exception to and posted in response to, perhaps because it was a lesbian video that didn’t agree with her stance? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/44 "2018-09-04T03:50:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > IMHO we need to stop labeling people. Lord yes. And I’m not phallosexual. The phallus is frankly not a particularly attractive thing. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/45 "2018-09-04T06:41:19Z")
You are trying to put labels on something that most people agree is fluid, the chromosome argument is completely faulty. this is a great article from the WHO on it. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies) [http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html](http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/46 "2018-09-04T09:02:14Z")
There already exist words for people who are attracted to women or men . They are _gynephile_ and _androphile_. But you’ll also note they don’t have much widespread use. There’s also an issue with one of those: _gynephilia_ is similar to _autogynephilia_, a transphobic “theory” that all trans women are either actually gay men or sexually attracted to themselves as women. So I’ve been floating along the Latin/Greek bastardization “femmiphile” instead. But “gynosexual” might be a better term. I could see a use for “phallosexual,” but that would be for people who are sexually attracted to people with penises. But that’s not the same thing as being an androphile, because not all and not only men have penises. And, finally, I’m not aware of anyone who is only attracted to intersex people. Plus “intersexual” is too close to _intersex_–they would often be confused. Oh, and we already have a word that indicates male-born woman: _MTF_, which stands for male-to-female. And, of course, a female born woman is _FTM_. Not that _trans woman_ and _trans man_ are really all that ambiguous anyways, and avoid the issue of whether a trans woman, for instance, was actually male at birth, or if she was merely a woman with male sex organs. I’d suggest the OP familiarize himself more with the terms that are actually used before proposing changes. Google stuff like an LGBT glossary or dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/47 "2018-09-04T12:01:55Z")
In argument that transgender women attracted to other women should get to count as lesbians, once my friend and her then-girlfriend were walking along the sidewalk, holding hands, when someone rolled down a window and yelled “Dykes!” at them. This was more amusing than shocking at the time, given my friend hadn’t transitioned _at all_ beyond growing her hair out and telling a few close people. But hey, that one jerk apparently agrees they count too! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mumberthax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mumberthax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mumberthax)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/48 "2018-09-04T15:16:37Z")
Ahm…transitioning from male to female (or vice versa) is biologically impossible. Transitioning from one gender to another, sure. But you can’t change your chromosomes. Sorry! It also seems to me that we need a discussion on whether sexual orientation follows biological sex or gender identity. However, that’s gonna be one helluva sticky ball o’ wax. I maintain my positions that the phrases ‘male-born woman’ or ‘female-born man’ are better than the inaccurate terms ‘male-to-female’ or ‘female-to-male’. One cannot go from being able to sire a pregnancy to being able to bear one, or vice-versa. I have no doubt that I will be accused of ‘transphobia’. Before you go there, understand that I have never argued that trans\* people should be hurt or discriminated against in any way. I simply insisted on accurate labeling. I will admit that you all made valid arguments. I appreciate your perspectives. However, my perspective remains changeable, yet still unchanged. I see no reason for me to address this topic on the boards; I’ll cede the issue to others. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/49 "2018-09-04T15:24:34Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > I simply insisted on accurate labeling. Have you tried stomping your foot as you make this demand? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/50 "2018-09-04T16:31:15Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > I will admit that you all made valid arguments. I appreciate your perspectives. However, my perspective remains changeable, yet still unchanged. I see no reason for me to address this topic on the boards; I’ll cede the issue to others. So your perspective is changeable but not by valid arguments? What would change it, then? Experience? ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/51 "2018-09-04T16:42:10Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > I maintain my positions that the phrases ‘male-born woman’ or ‘female-born man’ are better than the inaccurate terms ‘male-to-female’ or ‘female-to-male’. One cannot go from being able to sire a pregnancy to being able to bear one, or vice-versa. Wait…so the determination of whether someone is male is their ability to produce sperm that will successfully fertilize an egg? And a female is someone who can successfully produce said egg and carry the fetus to birth? Cause if so, there’s a LOT of people who won’t be considered male or female by those criteria. As other people have said, you’re making this out to be way more complicated than it needs to be. Just date people, have a conversation when sexy times come up and then if you find out they are trans, well…make the decision on whether you care about the person as a person or as what is (or was) between their legs. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/52 "2018-09-04T18:03:23Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Ahm…transitioning from male to female (or vice versa) is biologically impossible. Transitioning from one gender to another, sure. But you can’t change your chromosomes. Sorry! You’re advocating clear terminology, yet you don’t understand current terminology. Your assertions above are ambiguous and barely coherent. _Male_ and _female_ (along with non-binary) can refer to any of gender identity, gender presentation or physical characteristics. The term _transition_ is not used to refer to gender identity, the internal mental state. Transitioning means changing physical sexual characteristics and/or gender presentation to _accord with_ gender identity. It’s true that you cannot change your chromosome configuration. So what? Was there no concept of male and female before the discovery of DNA? There is no fixed mapping from chromosome configuration even to other physical sexual characteristics, as shown in the natural condition AIS or with synthetic hormone therapy; with future advances in biotech, this mapping will only become more malleable. > [@Mumberthax](#): > > It also seems to me that we need a discussion on whether sexual orientation follows biological sex or gender identity. However, that’s gonna be one helluva sticky ball o’ wax. What on earth does this mean? If by “follow” you mean there exist correlations, so what? It is a mental state with considerable diversity. For any individual, you may discover it only by talking to them. > [@Mumberthax](#): > > I maintain my positions that the phrases ‘male-born woman’ or ‘female-born man’ are better than the inaccurate terms ‘male-to-female’ or ‘female-to-male’. One cannot go from being able to sire a pregnancy to being able to bear one, or vice-versa. The terms are only “inaccurate” under your misguided attempt to reserve the descriptors _male_ and _female_ solely for chromosomal configuration. If being male is determined by the ability to sire a pregnancy, will you cease to identify as male if you become impotent or infertile? > [@Mumberthax](#): > > I have no doubt that I will be accused of ‘transphobia’. In this you are correct. More precisely, ignorant transphobia. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/53 "2018-09-04T19:35:18Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Ahm…transitioning from male to female (or vice versa) is biologically impossible. Transitioning from one gender to another, sure. But you can’t change your chromosomes. Sorry! > > It also seems to me that we need a discussion on whether sexual orientation follows biological sex or gender identity. However, that’s gonna be one helluva sticky ball o’ wax. > > I maintain my positions that the phrases ‘male-born woman’ or ‘female-born man’ are better than the inaccurate terms ‘male-to-female’ or ‘female-to-male’. One cannot go from being able to sire a pregnancy to being able to bear one, or vice-versa. > > I have no doubt that I will be accused of ‘transphobia’. Before you go there, understand that I have never argued that trans\* people should be hurt or discriminated against in any way. I simply insisted on accurate labeling. > > I will admit that you all made valid arguments. I appreciate your perspectives. However, my perspective remains changeable, yet still unchanged. I see no reason for me to address this topic on the boards; I’ll cede the issue to others. As has been mentioned the chromosome argument is faulty. Not all gender assigned female at birth people turn out to be XX and not all gender assigned male at birth people turn out to be XY. We don’t do chromosome testing at birth, and sometimes we get it wrong. Human anatomy at birth is somewhat less clear cut for many people than we traditionally assume it to be. Now, yeah, for most of us, the doctor looks at us says “congrats, its a girl (or boy)” and is right, But for a person with XY chromosomes born with androgyn sensitivity syndrome, they’ll get an assigned sex of female at birth, because that’s what the parts will look like. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/54 "2018-09-04T22:57:45Z")
Here’s what I still don’t understand: If your sexual desires run to people with breasts and vaginas, why would you care how and when they got there? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/55 "2018-09-05T05:42:35Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Here’s what I still don’t understand: > > If your sexual desires run to people with breasts and vaginas, why would you care how and when they got there? Because they think that ever happening to desire someone who ever had a penis, or who still has one, would require them to change their internal labeling of themselves. Very often, the first person these people need to stop pigeonholing into boxes based on hard, stiff, unmovable boundaries is - themselves. It’s the same kind of issue as with people who refuse to admit that they can see whether someone from their non-preferred box meets general definitions of “attractive”. In my world, being able to see what makes a certain chick turn most guys’ brains off for a sec doesn’t make me a lesbian, but in theirs it does (I’ve been known to drive such people up a wall by asking if looking at themselves in the mirror and thinking “looks good!” made them narcissists). ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/56 "2018-09-05T05:52:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > transphobia. I am a big supporter of the rainbow nation but I still think that saying ignorance or dislike of a particular bent is not a phobia. A phobia is fear. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/57 "2018-09-05T06:14:33Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I am a big supporter of the rainbow nation but I still think that saying ignorance or dislike of a particular bent is not a phobia. A phobia is fear. _nods_ If a misanthrope hates mankind, and a misogynist hates women, what would be the parallel term for someone who hates transgendered people? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/58 "2018-09-05T06:19:37Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I am a big supporter of the rainbow nation but I still think that saying ignorance or dislike of a particular bent is not a phobia. A phobia is fear. The prefix _-phobia_ doesn’t necessarily mean fear, just an aversion. And there isn’t a common suffix that exclusively means “hatred for” that is commonly used in English. So aversion seems to be the best fit. Plus, well, hatred for LGBT people is largely based on fear. Homophobia is largely fear of being turned gay, fear of people who are different, fear of society changing, etc. Transphobia is fear of people who are different, who are don’t fit in a certain box, the fear of being raped by a trans woman, etc. I mean, if they haven’t done anything to hurt anyone, and you aren’t afraid they will hurt someone, then what reason is there for hatred? (In this context, even “annoying you” counts as hurt, as it negatively affects you.) And, well, even if you did try to, say, borrow from _misogyny_ and make words like “misotrany” and “misohomony,” you still have the problem that words already exist, so you’d have to convince people to use them over the existing terms. And, well, they’re kinda crap. And people would still argue with you, saying that they don’t actually hate trans people, just like they do when you use the word _misogyny_, which really just means “sexism towards women.” You can never win with the [etymological fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy). So why play? Terms exist, and people know what they mean. So let’s use them. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/59 "2018-09-05T06:21:14Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I am a big supporter of the rainbow nation but I still think that saying ignorance or dislike of a particular bent is not a phobia. A phobia is fear. The ancient etymology of phobia is fear, but it has long included the closely related sense of aversion or antipathy. More recently in words like homophobia and transphobia the meaning has extended further to include not only antipathy but prejudice against. (I didn’t claim that it includes the concept of ignorance.) Unless you also want to insist that transpire means “to breathe across”, you just have to accept that semantics are not statically linked to etymology. > **[Etymological fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy)** > > An etymological fallacy is an argument of equivocation, arguing that a word is defined by its etymology, and that its customary usage is therefore incorrect. > Ancient Greeks believed that there was a "true meaning" of a word, distinct from common use. There is evidence that a similar belief existed among ancient Vedic scholars. In modern days, this fallacy can be found in some arguments of language purists. > An etymological fallacy becomes possible when a word's meaning shifts over time from its ... ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614/60 "2018-09-05T14:49:13Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Now that transgenderism has become more mainstream, I propose a new vocabulary to describe sexual orientation which would be based on biological sex. > > Gynosexual: Sexually attracted only to people with biologically female bodies (XX) > Phallosexual: Sexually attracted only to people with biologically male bodies (XY) > Intersexual: Sexually attracted only to people with intersex bodies (XXY, XO, etc) > > In addition, I propose the terms ‘male-born’, ‘female-born’, and ‘intersex-born’ to precede the terms ‘man’, ‘woman’, and ‘non-binary’. For example…I am a male-born non-binary. Caitlyn Jenner would be a male-born woman. Pidgeon Pagonis would be an intersex-born non-binary. And so on and so on and so forth. > > This would also apply to subgroups; viz.: a lesbian is a gynosexual female-born woman. Please note, I neither have nor claim to have any authority to speak for the lesbian sisterhood. From what I’ve read from lesbian activists, their sisterhood is VERY resistant to male-born women calling themselves lesbians, and are VERY vocal that the male-born have NO place in the lesbian community. Again, I have no authority over lesbians; I’m just passing along what many of their activists have placed on the public record. > > So…what do y’all think? How about, we don’t care? I don’t care who you happened to be sleeping with, I don’t care if you feel that you’re a man, woman, centaur, or whatever. It’s easy to design bathroom that accommodate all genders and give all genders privacy, (I’ve been to a few each stall was fully enclosed and the sink were in the common area). I don’t care how you dress. Basically all we need to do is not care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/820614.md?page=4)