# Sexual orientation, Virginia universities, and the new AG **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008 "2010-03-10T19:03:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/101 "2010-03-11T20:02:17Z")
Yoiu have not supported your premise that the law says what Cooch claims it says. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/102 "2010-03-11T20:03:23Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Dillon’s rule aside, it pretty much is a slam dunk that state universities are owned by the state - their independence is circumscribed in important ways everywhere. Including their independence to implement disciplinary policies. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/103 "2010-03-11T20:13:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And in turn, I am astounded at the legions of people who seem to think to themselves, “Bugger what the law says; my conscience will be my guide!” > > If you’re a legislator, that’s great: write the new laws with your conscience as your guide. As a enforcer or interpreter of the law, though, your job is to effect the consciences of those legislators, not your own. If you were a lawyer in 1940 Mississippi, would you be defending Jim Crow in court and in discussions with other lawyers and laymen, because it’s the law, regardless of your conscience? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/104 "2010-03-11T20:19:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If you were a lawyer in 1940 Mississippi, would you be defending Jim Crow in court and in discussions with other lawyers and laymen, because it’s the law, regardless of your conscience? You do recall that Jim Crow ended in large part because of changes to the law, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/105 "2010-03-11T20:21:25Z")
That’s not an answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/106 "2010-03-11T20:26:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you’re a legislator, that’s great: write the new laws with your conscience as your guide. As a enforcer or interpreter of the law, though, your job is to effect the consciences of those legislators, not your own. It seems to be you could easily be asking the same question of the AG. If the Virginia legislature wants to rescind it’s prior grant of power to handle hiring and student discipline to the Universities, why don’t they write a new law to do so? Why are you not questioning the AG’s decision because the legislature hasn’t enacted legislation that clearly states Universities in Virginia are not allowed to not discriminate (must discriminate?) on the basis of sexual orientation. You put the burden on the groups that have traditionally had the power to do so, instead of the groups that want to discriminate against homsexuals. Seems to me in a case like this, where I think we can all agree discrimination against homosexuals is a bad thing, the burden should be on the ones who want to discriminate, and not those who want to protect. Had there been a case pending for the AG to “stand up for the law”, I’d be much more inclined to cut him some slack in taking his position. But there wasn’t. He’s using his discretion to create a problem where there wasn’t one before. He took his pulpit, and is using it for bad things. I see no problem calling him out for that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/107 "2010-03-11T20:29:52Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > You do recall that Jim Crow ended in large part because of changes to the law, right? Yes, but the law wouldn’t have changed if everyone had simply said “It’s the law!” and didn’t fight it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/108 "2010-03-11T20:29:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If you were a lawyer in 1940 Mississippi, would you be defending Jim Crow in court and in discussions with other lawyers and laymen, because it’s the law, regardless of your conscience? A lawyer? No. The Attorney General of Mississippi? Yes, until my resignation became effective. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/109 "2010-03-11T20:32:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > It seems to be you could easily be asking the same question of the AG. If the Virginia legislature wants to rescind it’s prior grant of power to handle hiring and student discipline to the Universities, why don’t they write a new law to do so? Why are you not questioning the AG’s decision because the legislature hasn’t enacted legislation that clearly states Universities in Virginia are not allowed to not discriminate (must discriminate?) on the basis of sexual orientation. You put the burden on the groups that have traditionally had the power to do so, instead of the groups that want to discriminate against homsexuals. Seems to me in a case like this, where I think we can all agree discrimination against homosexuals is a bad thing, the burden should be on the ones who want to discriminate, and not those who want to protect. > > Had there been a case pending for the AG to “stand up for the law”, I’d be much more inclined to cut him some slack in taking his position. But there wasn’t. He’s using his discretion to create a problem where there wasn’t one before. He took his pulpit, and is using it for bad things. I see no problem calling him out for that. Because the legislature has had in front of it, a dozen times, proposals to add sexual orientation to the list of attributes compromising forbidden reasons for discrimination, and they’ve refused to every time. The law is a tool for social change in the hands of legislators. It’s not a tool for social change in the hands of prosecutors or judges. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/110 "2010-03-11T20:41:19Z")
cf. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/111 "2010-03-11T20:43:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because the legislature has had in front of it, a dozen times, proposals to add sexual orientation to the list of attributes compromising forbidden reasons for discrimination, and they’ve refused to every time. And they’ve granted the power to Universities to handle hiring and student discipline, which the Universities properly used to enact their anti-discrimination policies. If the legislature wants to now take that power away from the Universities, they can through legislation. Get enough votes to say “When we said that Universities can handle hiring and student discipline, we didn’t mean that they could not discriminate against homosexuals.” Apparently, there is an issue in the interpretation of these laws, and you put the onus for legislative change ONLY on one side of the issue. If Cooch was that concerned about universities not being able to discriminate against homosexuals, perhaps he should have had the legislators change the law. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/112 "2010-03-11T20:56:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because the legislature has had in front of it, a dozen times, proposals to add sexual orientation to the list of attributes compromising forbidden reasons for discrimination, and they’ve refused to every time. I’m curious then. Do you think the AG’s letter was meant that Virginia universities _must_ discriminate based on sexual orientation? I mean, as it stands the universities have their own policies which say they will not discriminate based on sexual orientation (among other criteria). Now the AG comes along and says they cannot use sexual orientation as a criteria because the legislature has not included them on that list. Soooo…then what? Virginia universities now must actively discriminate against these folk? I guess I am missing why the universities cannot decide for themselves if they do not want to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation even if, technically, they legally could on this basis. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/113 "2010-03-11T21:30:56Z")
My guess is that their policies cannot be too far afield of the state’s since they are state owned - and there is that Dillon rule to contend with. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/114 "2010-03-11T21:45:17Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > My guess is that their policies cannot be too far afield of the state’s since they are state owned - and there is that Dillon rule to contend with. We have seen no evidence that Dillion applies to any entity other than municipal and county/borough governments. Until that issue is resolved against the clear letter of the law empowering universities to regulate student and faculty discipline, Dillion does not appear to have any bearing on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/115 "2010-03-11T22:52:16Z")
> [@](#): > > § 23-114. Board of visitors a corporation and under control of General Assembly. > > The board of visitors shall be and remain a corporation under the name and style of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University **and shall at all times be under the control of the General Assembly.** All acts and parts of acts and statutes relating to Virginia Polytechnic Institute, its predecessors by whatever name known, or to the boards of visitors thereof, shall be construed as relating to the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. > > § 23-122. Powers and duties of board generally; expenses. > > The board shall be charged with the care and preservation and improvement of the property belonging to the University, and with the protection and safety of students and other persons residing on the property, and in pursuance thereof shall be empowered to change roads or driveways on the property or entrances thereto, or to close temporarily or permanently the roads, driveways and entrances; to prohibit entrance to the property of undesirable and disorderly persons, or to eject such persons from the property, and to prosecute under the laws of the state trespassers and persons committing offenses on the property. > > The board shall regulate the government and discipline of the students; and, generally, in respect to the government of the University, may make such regulations as they deem expedient, **not contrary to law.** Such reasonable expenses as the visitors may incur in the discharge of their duties shall be paid out of the funds of the University. This is from the Virginia Code. Similar legislation applies to each of the state institutions of higher learning. So Dillon rule aside, the General Assembly right from the start asserted their overall control of these institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/116 "2010-03-11T23:07:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m curious then. > > Do you think the AG’s letter was meant that Virginia universities _must_ discriminate based on sexual orientation? > > I mean, as it stands the universities have their own policies which say they will not discriminate based on sexual orientation (among other criteria). > > Now the AG comes along and says they cannot use sexual orientation as a criteria because the legislature has not included them on that list. > > Soooo…then what? > > Virginia universities now must actively discriminate against these folk? > > I guess I am missing why the universities cannot decide for themselves if they do not want to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation even if, technically, they legally could on this basis. Really? You don’t understand why a letter from the state government that controls your funding, saying “drop protections against sexual-orientation discrimination at your university,” might imply that he wants to see sexual orientation discrimination? Sounds pretty willfully obtuse to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/117 "2010-03-11T23:26:21Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > This is from the Virginia Code. Similar legislation applies to each of the state institutions of higher learning. So Dillon rule aside, the General Assembly right from the start asserted their overall control of these institutions. I don’t quite understand. Are you saying anti-discrimination policies are “contrary to the law” now? I completely understand that the GA has control over the Universities. But they also gave the Universities the power to make rules and regulations to cover the hiring of workers and for student discipline. Pursuant to that power, the Universities enacted anti-discrimination policies. Now, if the GA wants to take that power away, or limit it to exclude homosexuals, I suppose they can. But they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/118 "2010-03-11T23:57:32Z")
Don’t know how this might change things but (got this from TV so no cite) the Virginia governor signed an Executive _Directive_ which does not have the force of law that an Executive _Order_ does. Apparently, the pundits say, he is trying to thread a needle here keeping all sides happy. No idea if that directive actually means anything or is just a nice piece of paper with no more use than wiping your ass at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/119 "2010-03-12T00:47:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Don’t know how this might change things but (got this from TV so no cite) the Virginia governor signed an Executive _Directive_ which does not have the force of law that an Executive _Order_ does. Apparently, the pundits say, he is trying to thread a needle here keeping all sides happy. > > No idea if that directive actually means anything or is just a nice piece of paper with no more use than wiping your ass at this point. McDonnell’s problem is that, if the Republican party ever drops its policy of treating homosexuals like the Nazis treated Jews and demanding their total second-class status in all social institutions, then it will both be without a platform and alienate the majority of its base. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/120 "2010-03-12T02:23:46Z")
My guess is that Cooch and his boy toy had a big fight and Cooch wants to show him who’s boss. Seriously, I’m becoming more and more convinced that anti-gay bias is, in nearly every instance (and in every instance where it’s actively hostile), merely a reaction to the repression of homsexual longing. I am straight. I have a fair number of friends and/or acquaintances that I assume are straight. All of us feel (some more strongly than others) that gays are people too and don’t deserve to be discriminated against. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008.md?page=7)