# Sexual orientation, Virginia universities, and the new AG **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008 "2010-03-10T19:03:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/161 "2010-03-12T18:49:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “A complete nullity.” Not the case. > > “Have internal autonomy, period.” Also not the case. Authority exists, or it does not. (It does no good to finesse the issue by pointing out – correctly, as far as it goes – that universities have authority in some areas but not in others. Your assertion is that an omission in the General Assembly’s statutory language suffices to identify one of those “not in others” areas where the university lacks authority. That position leads directly to the sort of conclusions found in \*\*Whack-a-Mole’\*\*s example.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/162 "2010-03-12T18:51:50Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You still have not address the fact that this cannot be correct, because it leads directly to an irresolvable logical pardox: > > 1. The General Assembly has created a list of things upon which state universities are forbidden to discriminate (e.g. race). > > 2. The General Assembly has created a list of things upon which state universities are required to discriminate (e.g. out-of-state residency). > > 3. Some items are found on neither list. > > 4. The application of this maxim to items found on neither list makes it impossible for universities to take either of the options which, between them, comprise the full gamut of possibilities. Fallacy of equivocation. “A list of things upon which state universities are required to discriminate” is not the polar opposite of the “list of things upon which state universities are forbidden to discriminate.” One is a list of protected classes, which the university may not expand upon. Another is a list of reasons to charge different tuitions. You know you’re spouting nonsense with that. Your head would explode if you heard that Virginia Tech imposed a formal reprimand to one student for underage drinking, and expelled his roommate for the precise same offense, with the only difference being that the one expelled is from out of state. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/163 "2010-03-12T19:07:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The main problem with your ultra-confident predictions is that [when they’re wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=548645), you just shrug and claim that you never really cared about the issue, anyway. Not quite as artful as “you’re like a junkie” or simply ignoring my posts, but “you’ve been wrong before” puts your posts in Jack Hawkins territory. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/164 "2010-03-12T19:56:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Not quite as artful as “you’re like a junkie” or simply ignoring my posts, but “you’ve been wrong before” puts your posts in Jack Hawkins territory. The purpose of that rejoinder was not to say, “You’ve been wrong before.” Indeed, who among us has not been wrong before? (Apart from me, of course 😃 ) It’s just that when I’ve been wrong, I’ve been willing to eat the crow, admit it, acknowledge my prior failing. This brings, I hope, some well-deserved satisfaction to those on the other side of the argument, who may chalk up a victory of reason (or predictive power) for their side. My point in linking to that thread is that **Diogenes** ’s modus operandi was to downplay it. “Yeah, whatever, I didn’t care anyway,” as opposed to, “Wow, was I wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/165 "2010-03-12T20:14:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem with this attitude is that it places your personal judgment first. That’s great if your personal judgment is correct, but it sucks if you’re wrong. Part of the agreement we make by living in a society is the method of making rules for that society. If you concede to yourself the freedom to break the law because it’s unjust, you must concede that power to me, too… and maybe I don’t agree with you about which laws are just and which laws are unjust. If I didn’t think I was right, I wouldn’t be holding the beliefs I hold would I? The danger is if everybody started doing it, which really isn’t my problem. _I_ see homosexuality as not wrong so _I_ would do all that is possible to ignore or otherwise not enforce those laws. If you are simply angling for the law to do it’s job and the legislators to do theirs, then there are far better examples to pick than one that, to me, is an obvious affront to our anti-discrimination stances we’ve historically taken as a country > [@Bricker](#): > > There was no law directing Bull Connor to turn firehoses and attack dogs on peaceful marchers. What directed him to do that was his own sense of right and wrong. He was placing that sense above the law, following your guidance precisely. To him, the mixing of the races, the accord to blacks of a status equal to whites, was wrong, and he had a choice: obey the law, or obey his conscience. > > He chose to follow his conscience. You ignore the hundred years of Jim Crow laws before that, where it was legal and mandated for people to discriminate against blacks and other minorities. The South passed all kinds of shit laws when they lost the Civil War and those stood for a century before Lyndon Johnson got up the courage to sign the Civil Rights Act, and still some linger to this day in the guise of less overt racist policies. > [@Bricker](#): > > Now, it’s also true that the law DID discriminate against blacks in ways that should not have been ignored. But what was effective in getting those laws changed? Disobeying them? Or working through legal means? Which had more effect on Montgomery buses? Hint: they didn’t care about marchers until the “marching” was to work and back, in lieu of riding the buses. Peaceful protests within a legal context did help their PR. But so did illegal ones. The entire thing can be seen as a giant PR fight. Look the most sympathetic on TV and people will rally behind you whether or not you’re right. A hundred years before that, if the former slaves had refused to work for pittance and held rallies and told people how miserably they were being treated, they would have been laughed at and the treatment continued. Luckily we evolved a bit in the ensuing years and that kind of stuff was frown upon. Later on, perfectly legal things like being told to stand up for whites or move to the back was no longer hitting the same nerves, so people like Rosa Parks could legally disobey and become a huge rallying point for people. She protested illegally be refusing to get up, was that wrong? Did that not garner a lot of sympathy and lead to effective change through the legal means? It’s nice that people believe the law can work to free those unjustly confined, discriminated against, or marginalized, but sometimes doing it illegally can as well. We differ on this issue in how effective we assume the protests work. I think ignoring an asinine law can work, especially if no one but this doofus insists on enforcing it. I think that will garner huge amounts of sympathy and lead to effective change. I do NOT think that gays just plodding along and going with the flow will get any kind of publicity or sympathy from people who otherwise don’t think about gay issues all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/166 "2010-03-12T20:26:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The purpose of that rejoinder was not to say, “You’ve been wrong before.” > > Indeed, who among us has not been wrong before? (Apart from me, of course 😃 ) > > It’s just that when I’ve been wrong, I’ve been willing to eat the crow, admit it, acknowledge my prior failing. > > This brings, I hope, some well-deserved satisfaction to those on the other side of the argument, who may chalk up a victory of reason (or predictive power) for their side. > > My point in linking to that thread is that **Diogenes** ’s modus operandi was to downplay it. “Yeah, whatever, I didn’t care anyway,” as opposed to, “Wow, was I wrong.” Which makes it a dodge nonetheless. While you and I may agree about Dio, I find your consistent dodging and ignoring to be troubling. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/167 "2010-03-12T21:22:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m arguing that the the law may not be what Cuccinelli says it is. There’s no reason to discuss changing the law unless you can first support your premeise that the law says what you want it to say, and I contend that it does not. The assembly has gven universities the power to set its own rules for hiring and student conduct. Game over. > > Your argument that the university cannot include protected classes within its own internal rules is without merit, Universities have internal autonomy, period. Diogenes, I don’t think that the Universities have complete internal autonomy. They aren’t city states and they are subject to the laws of the Commonwealth. They are creatures of the state whose existence is governed by the State within certain limits as delineated by the General Assembly. The General Assembly can grant them powers and can remove them. In addition to that, the General Assembly can cut their funding. I also think that the issue of whether the schools are allowed to have a discrimination policy is a grey area of law with legal arguments to be made for either position. I could see a judge ruling either way or finding some other grounds to make a decision on any cases brought forth on the issue. Former Attorney General and Governor, Gerald Baliles has issued statement in which he argues with the current AG’s position.[Link Warning-PDF](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/Baliles%20letter.pdf). He also is of the legal opinion that Dillon’s Rule does not apply to universities, bur rather only to local governments. I think that Cuccinelli may unintentionally help matters here. By making such a big stink about this issue, he has brought attention to the fact that sexual orientation based discrimination is not banned by Virginia law, and has made it a rallying cry. I’m hoping that this will put pressure on the General Assembly to fix this mess. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/168 "2010-03-12T21:44:28Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > While you and I may agree about Dio, I find your consistent dodging and ignoring to be troubling. You don’t like \*anybody \*very much here, do you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/169 "2010-03-13T01:48:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I also feel that if you hear this story, and say to yourself, “This situation is wrong, and the legislature should act to change it,” then not only are you enlightened when it comes to gender expression, sexual identity, and sexual orientation issues, but you understand how our system of representative democracy should work. > > If you hear this story, and say to yourself, “This situation is wrong, and the Attorney General is the one who must change what he’s doing,” then you get full enlightenment mark for gender expression, sexual identity, and sexual orientation issues, but your understanding of our system of representative democracy is greatly flawed. Or I can hear this story and think (like many others including your elected governor) that the AG is misreading the law and is wrong. Let’s face it, AG’s aren’t elected on the basis that they’re great lawyers. The one we’ve got down here probably can’t spell law, let alone actually practice it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/170 "2010-03-13T20:01:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know you’re spouting nonsense with that. I am explaining a logical paradox, which inherently requires a statement that is nonsense. Duh. I await your resolution, which is nowhere to be found in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/171 "2010-03-15T15:40:48Z")
Cuccinelli responded to some of the criticism by writing a [letter to the editor](http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/opinion/op_ed/article/ED-CUCCIN14_20100312-204009/330038/). My favorite lines of his is: “It is my permanently and long-held belief that government should not single out anyone for negative treatment.” Well, unless that person is homosexual, right? Then you should be free to discriminate on that basis. I also liked the subtle: “Nothing I have said or written authorizes unconstitutional discrimination against any person.” He reiterates his legal argument in more plain (and untimately unpersuasive) language and relies on the “I’m just doing my job” argument Bricker made. And he did it once again completely ignoring that he didn’t have to isse the statement at all. And, as an aside, I couldn’t help but notice that he once again didn’t limit his statement to just “student discipline” issues, but rather to the entire anti-discrmiination policy. Looks like even he disagrees with Brickers’ reading. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/172 "2010-03-15T16:54:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I just figured I’d drop the thread here and let the SDMB’s Left prove my point. If you were trying to create a thread to bash “the SDMB’s Left” you should have opened a pit thread. Regardless, the Virginia AG’s case is as weak as yours. Wow, a newspaper editorial commented on the morality of the situation rather the minutia of Virginia law. Color me shocked. But what I see in this thread is in fact “the SDMB Left” addressing or at least questioning the actual legal standing of the AG’s statement. When are you going to admit you were wrong? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/173 "2010-03-15T16:55:57Z")
Just for perspective: This McDonnell person that Virginians chose as governor wrote a famous [thesis](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/29/AR2009082902434.html) at Pat Robertson’s college calling for government policy to favor married couples over “cohabitators, homosexuals, and fornicators”. He claims to have changed as he’s aged and grown, but the evidence of that is a bit murky. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/174 "2010-03-15T19:07:10Z")
Well, I guess we can now justifiably ignore Cooch as a crackpot: > [@](#): > > Newly-minted Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli appeared to endorse the idea that President Obama may not have been born in the United States during an interview posted by blogger “Not Larry Sabato”. > > Not only did Cuccinelli appear to stand up for birther claims, but the Virginia Attorney General went on to lay the groundwork for a potential court case challenging President Obama’s birth certificate. > > SOURCE: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/15/ken-cuccinelli-virginia-at\_n\_499311.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/15/ken-cuccinelli-virginia-at_n_499311.html) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/175 "2010-03-15T21:31:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, I guess we can now justifiably ignore Cooch as a crackpot: The latest report is that he has given a “clarification” of his earlier statements – “clarification” evidently being the fine art of maintaining enough distance from the crackpots to avoid losing sane people, but not so much distance as to lose the crackpots. It requires contortionist skills, and is easier when one lacks a spine. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/176 "2010-03-15T21:33:29Z")
You can’t just ignore a guy who has his amount of institutional authority, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/177 "2010-03-16T02:28:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My point in linking to that thread is that **Diogenes** ’s modus operandi was to downplay it. “Yeah, whatever, I didn’t care anyway,” as opposed to, “Wow, was I wrong.” Prophetic. What’s _your_ response to the Cooch’s recent statements, Bricker? Did you not care or were you wrong? Ain’t no other options on the table, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/178 "2010-03-16T03:52:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A lawyer? > > No. > > The Attorney General of Mississippi? Yes, until my resignation became effective. A commendable position. However, may one not judge someone who, in that position, does not resign his post, but instead, actively seeks out and promotes areas of the law which, properly interpreted, allow for even greater discrimination against blacks? Because the objections to Mr. Cuccinelli’s actions seem to (with some exceptions) break down into two camps: that his interpretation of the law is incorrect, and that while his interpretation may be correct, he’s still an asshole for being a willing and eager promoter of unjust law. I can’t say as either strikes me as either as any sort of character or reasoning flaw on the part of the complainer, or remotely unique to the political left of this country. Which brings me to my second point: > [@](#): > > So I offer this as a case study for what I see as a major flaw of the Left. Faced with a legal situation that produces undesirable results, the favored tactic seldom seems to be to amend the law; instead, the attack is pressed against the officials that are enforcing or interpreting the law, an end-run around the law, if you will. > > … > > No, I just figured I’d drop the thread here and let the SDMB’s Left prove my point. This is really stunningly poor logic, particularly coming from you. I say that not because you are especially logical (although you are), but rather, because you have generally decried this sort of empty political sniping when you, or another conservative, are the target of it. So it’s especially saddening to see you engage in it yourself, when we all know you are more than smart enough to know how pathetic the logical basis for the attack really is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/179 "2010-03-16T12:57:04Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Prophetic. What’s _your_ response to the Cooch’s recent statements, Bricker? Did you not care or were you wrong? Ain’t no other options on the table, bro. Are you referring to the interview or the letter to the editor? Or some other statement? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008/180 "2010-03-16T14:07:42Z")
Oh, **Bricker** you’re back. Quick question. Virginia is a conceal carry state, is it not? The GA has stated that people are allowed to carry concealled weapons in Virginia? Can a University make a policy that says that students and teachers are not allowed to carry concealled weapons on campus? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexual-orientation-virginia-universities-and-the-new-ag/532008.md?page=10)