sexuality and choice: a metaphor and a god question

Great Debates
41

aynrandlover:

Thanks for shedding some more light on my post. I just want to make one other point, based on the above statement of yours.

The choices that each of us must make…i.e., if one feels bound by the Bible as the word of G-d (thanks for explaining it, pldennison) may be different. However, such a difference is entirely subjective. Hard though it may be for you, an outsider, to believe, to the person making the choice between indulging his desires, the magnitude of the choices is the same.

To outsiders (and, of course, to homosexuals themselves), the prohibition on homosexual sex might be a bigger thing to have to give up than work on the Sabbath (and yes, Eve, it’s only about sex. There’s no Biblical prohibition on feelings, there’s only a Biblical transgression for, forgive the explicitness, penetration.). But you’re not inside the head of the workaholic. You’re not that business owner who’s tormented by, “If only I could give my customers 7-day-a-week service, I’m sure they would give me their business. I’ll bet I lose five customers for every Saturday I stay closed. Rent is due in a week, energy prices just went up again…” To that guy, despite what outsiders might think, the fact that he’s heterosexual is little comfort for his own personal choices he must make. His blood pressure is rising, his palms sweating just as much when he’s forced to make the choice to lay off business for a day as a homosexual’s do when lusting after a member of the same sex.

BTW, Eve, regarding the bestiality issue, “helpless” kind of depends on the animal, doesn’t it? :smiley:

Chaim Mattis Keller

42

Well, cm said a litte more to this, but I would also like to add that it isn’t just “fundies” who condemn homosexuality. Some others are quite bigoted towards it as well.

To say that bestiality or pedophilia is an assault on a helpless creature puts it WAY over the top. Having read many testimonials of bestiality I can assure you that most of them do not consider it to be assault; they love their pets very much, and treat them well. Animals like sex, humans like sex. I don’t think helplessness comes into play there.

The pedophilia issue is much more involved, but mainly because it is also a very charged issue. I had sex when I was just past 14 with a girl who was, as well, just past 14. Both of us liked the sex, both of us wanted the sex. Were I 21, however, then suddenly people would be up-in-arms. The child can’t consent to that act! etc. Well, I can assure you that some can.[sub] There are many other post-filling issues associated with pedophilia, and I took place in them much to my detriment, some say. At any rate, it is sufficient to say that the idea is not impossible, and does not carry with it, automatically, the concept of abuse. Whether it can be practiced on a large or socially acceptable scale without abuse is another issue[/sub]

The whole issue is, however, that God exists and has set down a code to live by. If everyone believed in this God and those codes, many would find the rules difficult. Some would find them almost impossible. Some would float through them without another thought, wondering what everyone else’s problem is. Whether this issue is homosexuality or observing Yom Kippur (in whatever way it is properly observed) or taking the Communion is completely irrelevant to the main point: X is evil, don’t do X; Y is good, promote Y. In this way, homosexuality is equated with pedophilia or bestiality as they are both transgressions against the word of God. I have never met a single religious person (even the Jehovas I used to chat with) who felt they were all the same sin, or that they were even the same in degree, merely that they all were bad things to do period.

As an analogy, you might consider rape and murder. Both are bad, both carry punishments. They are equivalent in that they are illegal. As far as jail times and fines go, however, YMMV.

As usual, in conversations about this, perhaps the Book of Job will shed some light on the the difficulty involved in resisting temptation as well as condemning God for events you are involved in. Its never easy, but some do have it easier than others.

43
  1. “No loving God would create me in such a way as to tempt me toward evil, OR pain, OR suffering…etc”
  2. I don’t think most people believe in predestination anymore. In fact, I don’t think most people believe that God really interferes in everyday life at people’s request, either. Gaudere and I and some {religious}others discussed that in some thread I can’t remember or I would link to it.
  3. Hi Opal!

The upshot of this, of course, is that God didn’t make you in any particular way. That’s the whole free will thing (which I don’t believe was ever explicitely stated in the bible, but its hinted at through choice). Thus, resisting peanuts is actually a pretty decent analogy if we interpret it in this way:
God, follower, temptation-induced choice.
Atheist, digestive problem, temptation-induced choice.
It’s hell either way :smiley:

44

Don’t bother to insinuate it. I openly admit I said it. That was my whole point. One of the assumptions of the OP was that homosexuality was a crime under the law of God. You might dispute whether it is a crime, so might I, but the fact remains that is one of the assumptions we have to make. The question was whether this is a fair law and what caused it to be unjust if it isn’t.
The same holds true for disease (actually metal illness, but I assume that’s what you are referring to). If homosexuality is assumed to be a crime and if it is assumed to be beyond the control of those committing the ‘crime’ then it becomes a mental illness. There is no black and white line here. The desires for rape, cross-dressing, self-mutilation, trans-genderification, bestiality, necrophilia and child-molestation have been and are considered mental illnesses in those societies that consider them illegal, and are all considered normal and acceptable behaviour elsewhere. It just depends on the society and what laws it chooses to apply.
For the purpose of this debate the OP assumed that homosexuality is illegal, and therefore by extension a strong desire to commit that act can be validly compared to a mental illness.
Whether the act is a crime, whether it is a mental illness (or ‘disease as Spooje puts it) and whether it harms anyone are all subjective, based largely upon whether you are prepared to accept the legitimacy of the laws of one (or possibly two) religions. The assumptions are entirely cultural. Child molestation was considered to be neither a crime nor a disease in ancient Greece and was thought to hurt no-one, yet is considered a crime, and in many cases a menatl illness, in our societies.
Once something is accepted as a crime however every society then makes laws making it quite clear that any individual committing those crimes will be punished, regardless of how deep-rooted the motivation behind the crime may be. As I said, the only real difference is that divine laws always seem to ensure a stint of damnation and torture after death.

Just for Spooje’s enlightenment:

Leviticus 20 :13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

1 Corinthians 6: 9-11
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders …will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:26-27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion

1 Timothy 1 9-11
He must understand that the law was not made for the man who lives right. It was made for those who do not want any laws over them, and for those who will not obey….It was made for those who use sex in the wrong way and for men who have sex with other men …, and for any other thing that is not right.

Jude 1 :7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

45

Sadly the sixty percent was a WAG…or a general estimate with no data to support it. (hangs his head in shame)

As for the Whole persecution argument… The same could be said of any minority…shrug, druggie in a clean suburban neighborhood, A punk rocker in Hickville usa, and of course a lawyer anywhere but the courtroom. (hehe ok, this probably isnt the place for humor…sue me) Why does anybody choose any of these paths? (some of them lawyers make good money though) You have me, i dont know why, a need to be different perhaps? An urge to stand out, why dont you tell me.

46

True, i do think we should leave religion out of it. What about those that choose the more open religions, not EVERYONE is christian.

As for love and living openly together… My best friend since sixth grade just happens to be gay, and he states all the time that it is about “love” (snicker) yet he has threesomes all the time…in fact he lives with two other gay guys he calls his “family” and they all date independently (i use date lightly) with full knowledge of each others actions. (in fact endorse that activity and ask to have thier turn with that date) Call me a hopless romantic, but this does not seem the activities of love.

Now dont get me wrong, the straight community is just as messed up. Love is an obsolete term nowadays, its perfectly interchangeable with Lust. So just use that word dammnit. Im sure, just as in the Straight community, There are a few couples that have fallen in “love” and not lust, though i would wager these are rare.

Yes, i have seen those people that have remained Celibate, and no, its not pretty. Extremists are sad really, there seems to be no middle ground with them. There is either Rut around till the equimpment rusts, or never never have sex. Moderation is the key folks, Sex (contrary to the primitive urges that seem to drive everyone) is not everything. Its good, and good things need to be done once in awhile, But too much is bad, and thinking about it 24/7 (even in sleep??) and doing it 18/7 (gotta have some time to sleep) is not the answer. And we call ourselves the Advanced species.

47

Of course. It’s not love unless it’s one male and one female under the trumped-up weight of holy matrimony, with both so inanely petty and bitterly jealous of each other that they would kill each other were either of them to (gasp) enjoy the company of another human being Who Is Not Them. (that whole Put To Death bit)

Consider your friend’s situation a form of true polygamy. Sure, it could just be a bunch of guys hanging out together for casual orgies…but who are you to say that it is? How’s the saying go? “Judge not, …”

48

I meant to reply to this ages ago. But since my name is on it…(and after that I’ll read the whole rest of the thread, Esprix, I promise).

But…God doesn’t hate peanuts. He made plenty of instestines that deal with peanut just fine. And for those people their deliscous and an excellent sorce of protein. God obviously intended those people to eat peanuts.

For the analogy to work, you’d have to say a homosexual is by definition someone who is not allergic to peanuts. And if peanuts make you sick, you’re probably straight.

I take the point that the Bible does put restriction on what you can do- including refraining from eating certain things even if they taste good and you can digest them. But if you believe that love is important to humans- and I do, and I think the God of the Bible does too- then giving you this orientation and then telling you it’s a sin is less like a dietary restriction and more like God telling you you wern’t allowed to eat.

49

Gay ppl are born gay, straight ppl are born straight, and bisexual ppl are born bisexual. Can you recall the day when suddenly you said, “I think i’ll like girls instead of guys.”? I doubt you can, and because you can’t you were born thinking that, or went into puberty thinking that.

It’s like when you get a crush, most of the time you dont even know why you like the person, you just do. You can point out things such as they look nice or have a nice voice, but your attraction goes deeper than that. A crush isn’t when you see a woman/man and say, damn they’re fine i like them, it’s when you think, I know they’re good looking and all, but it’s deeper than that. So it is in this way you can’t control who or what you like, it just happens.
p.s.- sorry for the dorky name, it was all i could think of at this late hour. :slight_smile:

50

Hi pldennison! I have no idea who cmkeller is, let alone what his religion is. This is, literally, the first I’ve heard about a prohibition on writing the lords name. Please forgive my ignorance.

51

So God didn’t actually say it. Somebody said it for him.
OK…

52

In the Bible, it is the true ineffable name of God that one is not supposed to say: YHVH(some say Yahweh). It stands for Yod He Vau He.

On another note: I find the discussions by some of the heterosexuals of this board on homosexuality repugnant and repellant. The majority of naysayers, either religous or otherwise, seem to have absolutely NO understanding of what it is to be different, or refuse to open themselves to learn anything new.

They debate homosexuality as if they actually have a right to judge whether if another person’s love is valid. I find that monumentally insulting and presumptuous. For a board that is to focus on the eradication of ignorance, I see a small population of open minded, thoughtful heterosexuals bumping heads with those who wish to hold on to their ignorance with all the power in their bodies.

Legal or not, I married my husband for better or worse. We see each other through hardships(and there have been many), and we are there for each other through the good times as well. We get no tax breaks, public acclimation, or legal protections. Nonetheless, we are together and shall remain so, come rain or come shine.

I find it amazing that some heterosexuals, who live in a land of heterosexual priveledge, can be so quick to pick up a stone and cast aspersions. The divorce rate is incredible, people leave each other because they “grew apart,” and then gay people are denied the chance to make their partnerships legal. I am amazed by this, and even more amazed by those who viciously fight for the status quo.

53

I’m having a little trouble with this one Spooje.
If we accept the existence of a Christian/Hebrew god, as we must for the OP, then we must accept that the Bible/Torah are divine works. In that case God said homosexuality is wrong, as stated in the scriptures I posted. If you don’t accept the Bible/Torah then I can’t see how you can accept the Christian/Hebrew god, and the whole OP, and indeed questions like ‘Did God say it?’ become nonsensical.
By saying "God didn’t actually say it’ you imply faith in the existence of the Christian/Hebrew god, yet by failing to accept the divine nature of the Bible/Torah you are negating the only evidence we have as to what his nature might be or what he might have said.
Do you have access to some other source of God’s word?
Please enlighten me, I’m confused.

54

To answer your question, I do not look on the bible or any such book as divine works. I think some of it’s writers added some of their own prejudices, fears, and other baggage. I do not accept the existance of the supreme being the bible speaks of at this time. That’s just me.

My remarks were flip and somewhat mocking. I apologize for that. It was wrong of me. I do not wish to deride your beliefs.

But this, from the OP:

is hogwash. Homosexuals cannot choose to be straight anymore than you, Gaspode, can choose to be gay. So as I see it, homosexuals have two choices to avoid ‘God’s wrath’.

  1. Celibacy. To deny themselves that physical intimacy so important to people the world over.
  2. Lie. Engage in a heterosexual relationship that will of course lack true intimacy, seeing as it is deceiptful at it’s core because that person will still be gay and not true to themselves.

Both options seem cold and hurtful to me.

So, if there is a God, I hope that bible is just a bit off, as I suspect it is.

55

This is My humble opinion only; I personally think the bible says that sex outside of marriage is sinful.
However, I am for legal rights of gays to marry.
Legally, I Cannot see what would be wrong with that.
It doesn’t “break down the family” as some nutjobs are wont to say.
However, I seemt o be the only christian I know who feels this way.
Everyone I know who consdieres themselves Christian thinks just being gay is a sin.
I hope I didn’t hijack this, I thought it was the proper forum to say it.
Go on back to what you were talking about.

56

spooje:

spooje, I want to ask you an honest question here, and I am not trying to be inflammatory:

Is the only concept of G-d that is acceptable to you one that includes no form of sacrificing one’s preferred pleasure? If the answer to this first question is “no,” then by what standard to you determine whether a certain kind of pleasure is a fine one for G-d to request that his adherents sacrifice for his sake?

Chaim Mattis Keller

57

Ok let’s look at this.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Leviticus is full of bizaare laws the overwhelming majority of which have been rejected by modern Christians. Which is appropriate; they generally have to do with ritual purity rather that moral teaching. However modern Christians (some of them, certainly not all) have picked out a few (and always that one ) and said oh know that’s one a moral law, unlike the one mentioned the chapter before it or the chapter after. They know this because it fits in with their moral prejudges.

**

First of all, this has been translated many different ways, some of which don’t even include any mention of homosexuality. But let’s go with this one. Ok. No prostitutes and no (homo)sexual offenders. Doesn’t say anything about monogamous gay couples.

**

It seems to me these have a lot more to do with lust and wantoness then homosexuality. Of course I realize many people don’t know there’s a difference- or can imagine that homosexuals have sex for the same reasons men sleep with their wives- ya’know, love.

Oh and I’ve always seen Timothy translated “Defilers of themselves with mankind”. I don’t see a justification for turning that into “have sex with men” any more than an admonition to not defile yourself with prostitutes applies to sex with your wife.
**

Yeah, I’d say they gave thenselves up to sexual perversion. If I had a couple of friends visiting me from out of town (let’s call them Linda and Sue) and a bunch of the guys from by neighborhood showed up in the middle of the night and demanded to have sex with them I would say they were behaving in a morally suspect manner.

Believe it or not, homosexuals forming themselves into mobs and going door to door demanding sex from unwilling strangers is not a common homosexual practice. No, not even in the Village.
Of course you will say I’m splitting hairs and OF COURSE everybody knows the Bible is against homosexuality. But I think believing that it really requires you to believe homosexuality is about nothing other than lust. I can assure you it isn’t.

I can say for certain, given that the Gospels say ABSOLUTLY NOTHING about homosexuality, but I suspect Jesus would have no problem with turning water into wine for a commitment ceremony.

58

Chaim, I know this wasn’t directed towards me, but I have to jump in here. I think it’s extremely unfair to characterize abstinence from love as merely “sacrificing one’s preferred pleasure.” Finding love is not merely a quest for pleasure, but one of the most primal needs we have. To echo spooje, it seems like a pretty screwed up God who would create a large group of people and then say essentially, “Live your life constantly longing for the opportunity for love and intimacy which I have reserved exclusively for heterosexuals, or be damned.”

59

Ptahlis:

As I said earlier in the thread, there is no Biblical prohibition on love. Only on sex.

Chaim Mattis Keller

60

Yes, but sex with someone you love is more than simply a “preferred pleasure”. You seem to be trivializing homosexual relationships; I think that’s what was unfair.