# Sexuality: Choice or not, and does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190 "2010-01-24T03:04:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/81 "2010-01-25T20:37:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I accept that reproductive operations are a really fundamental/primal part of our makeup, so maybe they are in a class of their own, but then again, eating is pretty fundamental too. Well, sticking with that - do you think you could convince yourself that eating cardboard was something you liked, say? Something non-food, the opposite of food, but harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/82 "2010-01-25T21:09:40Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > This is part of what I was getting at. A lot of people “accept” homosexuality because ‘it is what it is,’ but what if it’s not? There certainly isn’t concrete proof one way or the other. > > The question of whether or not that matters is asked, not in general, but to people as individuals. “Does it matter,” was not a general question, but one specifically aimed at anyone who replies. > > Is it only acceptable if it’s innate, and not a choice? > > Many people, in this thread and out in the world, seem to imply, whether intention or not, that if one **can** choose, that they should be choosing heterosexuality. It’s “better,” for whatever reason they’ve decided. Reading through the thread should make this apparent. > > Personally, I don’t see one as superior to the other, in any way, and never have. Maybe that’s why I don’t innately reject the idea that it might be a choice… there’s no benefit to pressuring them to change their mind, to my minds eye. But how do we know that you’re not a bored college sophomore trolling the boards to raise people’s ire? I’m not saying that to insult but to exemplify – barring good evidence to the contrary, we expect to find you arguing the point of view you actually hold, debating in good faith, etc. And that is precisely what the ‘anecdotal’ evidence for the unchosenness of (almost all) homosexuality is – giving good faith to persons’ statements about themselves evidently given in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/83 "2010-01-25T21:11:15Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > No. Life is already filled with more than enough false dichotomies. In a perfect world everybody would be bisexual. There’s nothing wrong with monosexuality either. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/84 "2010-01-25T21:27:12Z")
I have seen stories of people who “choose” their sexuality. In every case it is a homosexual person “choosing” to be heterosexual. Or rather, live a heterosexual lifestyle. They generally do this because of religion or family pressure. However to me that is akin to me “choosing” to be a woman. I could dress up and play the part sure but underneath I would remain a guy. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/85 "2010-01-25T21:27:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No you haven’t, and no they don’t. Yes I have and yes I have, actually. Have you been following me around my entire life, recording every person I met with, and then spying on those people to make sure that they aren’t changing their sexual orientation? If not, then your claim to know what’s happened to my friends and coworkers better than I know what’s happened to them is obviously preposterous. I can name a half dozen people who entered college in the same class as me as homosexuals or bisexuals and graduated four years later as heterosexuals. Of course you’re free to doubt the word of an anonymous internet user like me, but there are plenty of well-known examples of people who changed their sexual orientation. Two that come to mind are economist John Maynard Keynes and singer Richard Penniman (Little Richard). I’m sure a quick internet search would turn up plenty of others. As for your rejection of my claim about research, I’ve already referred to a a source that documents changing sexuality within people’s lifetimes: The Kinsey Study. Do you have any reason to believe that its results are not true? If so, please explain that reason. If not, I’ll conclude that the results stand. > [@](#): > > Well the AMA and the APA both reject the idea that sexual orientation is mutable, for instance, Actually the APA has changed its stance. In 1998, they published a pamphlet saying that “genetic or inborn hormonal factors” determined a person’s sexual orientation. However, in 2008, they published a revised pamphlet in which that claim had vanished, to be replaced by this: “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.” As for the AMA, I’ve read nothing, but given how wrong you were about the APA I wouldn’t wager money on it. > [@](#): > > and the notion that it’s possible is plainly asinine if you give it any thought at all, but the more salient question is what is the proof that it CAN be changed? [http://books.google.com/books?id=y7d2onWkTkwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Jones+Yarhouse+ex-gays&source=bl&ots=HIA0pOrExY&sig=cjlTxDCSZSXvm3d6KbAP41olaqE&hl=en&ei=VwpeS4a4BZGzlAfzvbnpBA&sa=X&oi=book\_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false](http://books.google.com/books?id=y7d2onWkTkwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Jones+Yarhouse+ex-gays&source=bl&ots=HIA0pOrExY&sig=cjlTxDCSZSXvm3d6KbAP41olaqE&hl=en&ei=VwpeS4a4BZGzlAfzvbnpBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false) > [@](#): > > All of the attempted methodolgies and “therapies” for it have miserable failure rates. I know from my previous experience in debating you that asking you for a cite is a waste of time, but I’m going to do it anyway. Please provide a cite. Keep in mind, of course, that you’ve claimed that no person has ever changed their sexual orientation by choice. So even a “miserable failure rate” would prove you wrong. If there’s anybody who’s changed their sexual orientation, that would prove you wrong. > [@](#): > > Why do so many gay teenagers kill themselves if they can just “choose” not to be gay? As I and others have already answered this question on the first page of this thread, I see no need to repeat the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/86 "2010-01-25T21:56:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes I have and yes I have, actually. Have you been following me around my entire life, recording every person I met with, and then spying on those people to make sure that they aren’t changing their sexual orientation? If not, then your claim to know what’s happened to my friends and coworkers better than I know what’s happened to them is obviously preposterous. I can name a half dozen people who entered college in the same class as me as homosexuals or bisexuals and graduated four years later as heterosexuals. Of course you’re free to doubt the word of an anonymous internet user like me, but there are plenty of well-known examples of people who changed their sexual orientation. Two that come to mind are economist John Maynard Keynes and singer Richard Penniman (Little Richard). I’m sure a quick internet search would turn up plenty of others. > > \ > > I know from my previous experience in debating you that asking you for a cite is a waste of time, but I’m going to do it anyway. Please provide a cite. Keep in mind, of course, that you’ve claimed that no person has ever changed their sexual orientation by choice. So even a “miserable failure rate” would prove you wrong. If there’s anybody who’s changed their sexual orientation, that would prove you wrong. Human sexuality, or if you prefer what turns you on sexually, is a continuum. You will have people all along that continuum. That there are some people who are borderline between heterosexual/homosexual should not be surprising. That some of these people may “choose” which way to go for themselves is not hard to imagine. I submit that this is a very small percentage of the population however. If it were otherwise, if people really were “choosing” their sexuality on a regular basis we should see evidence of it in literature throughout history as well as it being a common topic of discussion. E.g. “Hey man, why did you decide to like girls?” Personally I have never heard that discussion. I would also submit the “miserable failure rate” is correct. People have been trying to fix “being gay” for centuries. It was deemed a psychological malady to be cured in the US till the 90’s. My ex-wife’s cousin even wrote a book, [The Last Time I Wore a Dress](http://www.amazon.com/Last-Time-Wore-Dress/dp/1573226963/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264456269&sr=8-1), regarding her experiences in a psych ward trying to “cure” her of being a lesbian. I also have to wonder when someone has been made to un-choose being gay whether they were browbeaten into it or have actually discovered that all of a sudden chicks give them a woody. In almost all respects the effort to “cure” people of being gay has not met with a great deal of success or we’d be rid of “gayness” by now. More often the effort is tortuous to the individual they seek to cure. If it were merely a choice it would not be hard at all. Indeed ask most homosexuals and they would say they would not willingly “choose” to be gay if for no other reason than all the hassles society throws at them. The “easy” answer would be to choose a heterosexual lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/87 "2010-01-25T21:58:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > But how do we know that you’re not a bored college sophomore trolling the boards to raise people’s ire? I could list the ways, but there are too many to list all of them, so I’ll keep it short. 1. It doesn’t fit with my history on the boards. 2. I haven’t made any claims. 3. I’m not _in_ college. > [@Polycarp](#): > > I’m not saying that to insult but to exemplify – barring good evidence to the contrary, we expect to find you arguing the point of view you actually hold, debating in good faith, etc. I have argued the point I hold – there isn’t sufficient evidence one way or the other. > [@Polycarp](#): > > And that is precisely what the ‘anecdotal’ evidence for the unchosenness of (almost all) homosexuality is – giving good faith to persons’ statements about themselves evidently given in good faith. No, that’s not what anecdotal evidence is for. Anecdotal evidence is just what it is, anecdotal and not enough to base a conclusion on. It’s not enough for me to believe in God, bigfoot or the Lochness monster, why would it be enough for this? I’ve never said that it _can’t_ be innate, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if it was – however it seems entirely premature to hold that as fact. In fact, it seems more like an article of faith than an objective fact at this point. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/88 "2010-01-25T22:04:19Z")
Being gay, unlike being black, can be faked. And you cannot prove otherwise. This is why this will be an issue for a long time to come, because there will always be some ignorant people out there who will never ever accept that another person is gay by birth and not choice. As for why religion is protected? The hell if I know, I’ve been trying to figure that out for years. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/89 "2010-01-25T23:07:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, sticking with that - do you think you could convince yourself that eating cardboard was something you liked, say? Something non-food, the opposite of food, but harmless. Mental illness aside, most probably not - but I just think that’s an irrelevant analogy for me. Homosexual and heterosexual are different, but not in the way cheese and cardboard are different. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/90 "2010-01-25T23:08:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I have seen stories of people who “choose” their sexuality. In every case it is a homosexual person “choosing” to be heterosexual. Or rather, live a heterosexual lifestyle. They generally do this because of religion or family pressure. > > However to me that is akin to me “choosing” to be a woman. I could dress up and play the part sure but underneath I would remain a guy. I have heard that some heterosexual women involved in the [separatist feminist movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism) attempted to become lesbians. It’s my understanding that this didn’t work out well for anyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/91 "2010-01-25T23:29:26Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Interesting choice of words. You say that after repeated attempts you found yourself liking Guinness, not that you decided to like it and that was that. This suggests that something beyond your conscious control had to change before you could enjoy the taste of Guinness. Certainly _something_ changed, because I do really like it now and I did really dislike it at first. But the change took place as a result of my decision to get to like it (I could have decided not to bother) > [@](#): > > If your taste preferences were completely under your conscious control and you were interested in being able to enjoy a wider variety of coffees, wouldn’t you have chosen to enjoy both black and white coffee equally? I don’t really see why - I explicitly chose to focus my taste upon black unsweetened coffee. Then again, why not? - I think I could make myself like both black or white coffee, if I chose to - I just didn’t, is all. > [@](#): > > It should be obvious enough that people’s preferences sometimes change (as I mentioned before, I used to dislike tomatoes but now I like them just fine), and even that there are choices people can make that can affect some types of preferences. I could probably put myself off tomatoes again by subjecting myself to some type of aversion therapy. But I can’t turn my preferences on and off like a light switch, and there are some things I find so unpleasant that I don’t believe I could ever come to enjoy them. Repeated exposure would be a kind of torture. Like I said, I don’t know if it’s the same for everyone - maybe I’m anomalous or something, but I _can_ turn them on and off - albeit not instantly. > [@](#): > > When it comes to sexual orientation, many homosexual people have tried very hard to stop being homosexual and start being heterosexual. The stakes in some cases have been quite high. All kinds of therapies have been used towards this goal, with pretty dismal results. There are “ex-gays” who claim that they really and truly have stopped being gay and are now totally straight and I am open to the possibility that some small number of people are capable of voluntarily changing their sexual orientation in this way\*, although I believe even these sexual converts would say it was very difficult and that they needed a lot of help and support along the way. But it’s clear enough that for the vast majority of homosexuals (even many supposedly successful “ex-gays”), attempting to make such a change is doomed to failure. > > If this were a choice that anyone could freely and consciously make, we’d see far fewer people with sexual orientations they’re unhappy with in the first place and far more people changing their current orientation than we do. I don’t mean just homosexuals either. I’m sure some heterosexuals would flip back and forth if they could just for fun, and if everyone in the world could choose to be bisexual it really would double our chances of a date on Saturday night. Point taken that attempts to make this happen have been almost exclusively disastrous - but I think there are a lot of confounding factors in the mix - lots of guilt, coercion, force etc - not a good recipe for any venture. > [@](#): > > \*I think it’s more likely that these people were either confused about their sexual orientation (e.g. they were actually bisexual to begin with) or are fooling themselves, but I don’t have any real way of knowing. Dunno - that seems a bit too easy and self-confirming an answer - it’s defined that nobody can change - and any counterexamples are waved away as being something already changeable anyway (I accept you didn’t state it that firmly). There’s nothing about my sexuality that makes me uncertain about how it works and what it wants _right now_, but there’s also nothing about it that makes me feel it’s any more written in stone than the things I know I _can_ change. I accept that I might just not be aware of some crucial details - I don’t suppose I’ll ever know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/92 "2010-01-25T23:59:32Z")
> [@Cesario](#): > > As an exclusively heterosexual pedophile, I can assure you that there are physical differences between the two sexes at that age. I gagged a little when I read that. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/93 "2010-01-26T00:33:01Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I have heard that some heterosexual women involved in the [separatist feminist movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism) attempted to become lesbians. It’s my understanding that this didn’t work out well for anyone involved. I’m sure they had fun in trying though 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/94 "2010-01-26T01:15:26Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Certainly _something_ changed, because I do really like it now and I did really dislike it at first. But the change took place as a result of my decision to get to like it (I could have decided not to bother) That’s basically what I said, that you chose to take an action that resulted in a change in your preferences. But was this action guaranteed to succeed? Can you at least imagine that there might be some beverage that tasted so bad to you that you wouldn’t eventually come to like it no matter how often you tried? Or, perhaps more to the point, why didn’t you save yourself the trouble and just decide to like Guinness the first time you tried it? What I’m getting at here is that just because something can change with voluntary effort doesn’t mean that this change is strictly a matter of choice, or that the original state was one that was chosen. Even the name “acquired taste” suggests that the natural default state is to _not_ enjoy that taste. > [@](#): > > \*Point taken that attempts to make this happen have been almost exclusively disastrous - but I think there are a lot of confounding factors in the mix - lots of guilt, coercion, force etc - not a good recipe for any venture. \*It seems to me like it would be easier, not harder, to give up a personal preference if you felt guilty about what you liked and the people around you wanted you to stop liking it too. And why would people living in more tolerant situations not voluntarily change their sexual orientation just for fun or out of curiosity? > [@](#): > > \*Dunno - that seems a bit too easy and self-confirming an answer - it’s defined that nobody can change - and any counterexamples are waved away as being something already changeable anyway (I accept you didn’t state it that firmly). \*I didn’t state it in any way even close to that. I said I am open to the possibility that some people are capable of changing their sexual orientation, but that I do not think it is likely. I am skeptical because of the large number of self-proclaimed “ex-gays” who returned to homosexual behavior, and because even [Exodus International](http://www.exodusinternational.org/content/view/43/87/) doesn’t claim to be able to completely do away with all “homosexual temptations”. They claim _lessening_ of these temptations as a success, but if someone had truly changed their orientation then they wouldn’t be feeling any such temptations. That said, I’m in no position to tell someone else what their own sexual desires are. If someone were to tell me that they used to feel attracted exclusively to members of the same sex but through deliberate effort managed to transform this into exclusive desire for the opposite sex with no pesky “homosexual temptations” at all then I’d have to take their word for it. I’ve never encountered such a person though, so while I can’t rule out the possibility that they exist I’m not going to pretend that I think there are a lot of them out there. > [@](#): > > \*There’s nothing about my sexuality that makes me uncertain about how it works and what it wants _right now_, but there’s also nothing about it that makes me feel it’s any more written in stone than the things I know I _can_ change. I accept that I might just not be aware of some crucial details - I don’t suppose I’ll ever know for sure. \*I do not personally believe that human sexuality is “written in stone”. I just don’t believe that sexual orientation is a matter of personal choice, at least not for the vast majority of people. In the not too distant future it might be possible for everyone to choose to change their sexual orientation through some kind of gene therapy or hormone treatment. But if no one had a sexual orientation until they deliberately chose one for themselves, or if changing one’s initial orientation were something that anyone could choose to do through force of will alone, then we should have plenty of evidence of this. It would be happening all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/95 "2010-01-26T03:17:49Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I have heard that some heterosexual women involved in the [separatist feminist movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism) attempted to become lesbians. It’s my understanding that this didn’t work out well for anyone involved. I recall reading about that at the time. Didn’t work; no matter how hard they tried to convince themselves they were lesbians ideology lost out to biology. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/96 "2010-01-26T04:19:45Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I gagged a little when I read that. I was just trying to help. There are a lot of things people don’t notice because they don’t care enough to notice. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/97 "2010-01-26T07:29:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This is interesting, because I _have_ chosen to like and dislike things in the past - I don’t claim to be unique in this respect - the concept is called _acquired taste_. > > The first time I tasted Guinness, I thought it was horrible - it literally made me gag, but (for reasons that don’t really matter), I kept on trying it and eventually, I found myself liking it a lot. > > I used to find coffee undrinkable without cream and sugar, but because this allowed for considerable variation when other people made it for me, I decided to train myself to enjoy it black and unsweetened - now I only like it that way - if someone gives me white coffee, I can force it down, but I truly don’t enjoy it. > > The first time I smelt Stilton, I thought it was revolting - like a combination of vomit and rotting domestic refuse - couldn’t even bear to touch it, but I acquired the taste gradually by trying other cheeses of varying levels of challenge, working up to the really smelly ones (although more out of increasing curiosity than determination in this case). Now, the smellier, stronger cheeses tend to be my favourites, and I love Stilton. > > I used to smoke - and I used to enjoy it - I even used to enjoy the atmosphere of second-hand smoke in a crowded pub (back when it was legal to smoke in pubs here), but there came a time when I accepted that it was going to harm me in the long run - part of my method for giving up was to consciously decide to find cigarette smoke repulsive - and it worked - that is, it helped me to give up and I now really can’t stand the smell of cigarette smoke. > > I could describe other examples, but that’s probably enough… > > So… could I change my sexual preferences? I honestly reckon I could. There are things in my life (wife and kids) that mean the motivation to do so is probably not likely to arise, and I’m not claiming everyone is like me (indeed, I know with examples similar to the ones I mention above, some people really can’t seem to change their food likes and dislikes), but I don’t think I’m unique either. > > _I_ can change my tastes and desires, if I want or need to. Some things might require more motivation than others. > > And of course, it bears repeating that I don’t think people _should_ have to try to change their sexual orientation, unless they truly want to and feel they are able. Certainly nobody else should ever make that decision for them. Good post. I too think that it is fairly obvious that many people are able to consciously change their preferences - I did so with respect to my taste in music, for example. Likewise, I am left handed but am only comfortable using the mouse with my right hand now. Rafael Nadal is naturally right-handed, but he learned to play tennis left-handed, and look where that got him - certainly predispositions can be overcome! Sexuality is a probably a much stronger preference than taste in food or music, or even handedness - my guess would be that the strong link to biology leads to a generally strong genetic predisposition. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if many people who were predisposed to homosexuality would be able to “get used to” being heterosexual, to the point where they may in fact prefer the company of the opposite sex. I’d imagine if there wasn’t such negative social pressure against being homosexual, quite a few people who were predisposed to being heterosexual could become comfortable being homosexual as well. Did most of the ancient Greeks who practiced homosexual pederasty do so because they were innately homosexuals, or did they choose to do it because it was a social norm? Of course it is impossible to know whether any of them enjoyed it, so perhaps they were all just doing it out of a sense of duty or something. My position is that while your predisposition to any particular preference is predetermined, you DO have a choice in your actions, and your actions CAN have an affect on your preference over time. That’s not to say that everyone can change any preference that they have if they put enough effort into it, but I think it’s rigid thinking to assume that sexuality is so hard-coded that it is impossible to change. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/98 "2010-01-26T07:45:09Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > Good post. I too think that it is fairly obvious that many people are able to consciously change their preferences - I did so with respect to my taste in music, for example. Likewise, I am left handed but am only comfortable using the mouse with my right hand now. Rafael Nadal is naturally right-handed, but he learned to play tennis left-handed, and look where that got him - certainly predispositions can be overcome! > > Sexuality is a probably a much stronger preference than taste in food or music, or even handedness - my guess would be that the strong link to biology leads to a generally strong genetic predisposition. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if many people who were predisposed to homosexuality would be able to “get used to” being heterosexual, to the point where they may in fact prefer the company of the opposite sex. I’d imagine if there wasn’t such negative social pressure against being homosexual, quite a few people who were predisposed to being heterosexual could become comfortable being homosexual as well. Did most of the ancient Greeks who practiced homosexual pederasty do so because they were innately homosexuals, or did they choose to do it because it was a social norm? Of course it is impossible to know whether any of them enjoyed it, so perhaps they were all just doing it out of a sense of duty or something. > > My position is that while your predisposition to any particular preference is predetermined, you DO have a choice in your actions, and your actions CAN have an affect on your preference over time. That’s not to say that everyone can change any preference that they have if they put enough effort into it, but I think it’s rigid thinking to assume that sexuality is so hard-coded that it is impossible to change. OK, let’s say you (and others making the claim) are right – predispositions **can** be changed. _ **For the sake of the argument** _, I will grant that this may be true. I **still** maintain – and the OP asked about this – that **it does not matter**. The “fact” (if it is one) that a left-handed person can “learn” to be right-handed does not give society a right to impose right-handedness on them. In the same vein, I maintain that even if it is true that a person can “unlearn” their predisposed sexuality – **this does not give society a right to impose on a person to do so, ever**. Innateness, or choice, have nothing to do with this. A person’s sexuality does not harm society _per se_ (if a person is imposing their sexual preference on an unwilling partner, it’s rape, no matter whether it’s homosexual or heterosexual rape!) and therefore society has no business trying to impose a particular choice of sexuality on any person – _ **even if this is possible** _. I’d \*\*hate \*\*it if society tried to force me to like other men – why should I condone society, or any part of it, trying to force, e.g., a homosexual guy to like women?! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/99 "2010-01-26T08:03:22Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with monosexuality either. As someone who actually is “monosexual,” I couldn’t agree more. But when choosing a partner, it would be nice not to have to eliminate half the population. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190/100 "2010-01-26T08:12:55Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > OK, let’s say you (and others making the claim) are right – predispositions **can** be changed. _ **For the sake of the argument** _, I will grant that this may be true. > > I **still** maintain – and the OP asked about this – that **it does not matter**. The “fact” (if it is one) that a left-handed person can “learn” to be right-handed does not give society a right to impose right-handedness on them. In the same vein, I maintain that even if it is true that a person can “unlearn” their predisposed sexuality – **this does not give society a right to impose on a person to do so, ever**. I think you misunderstood the point of the OP. At no point in the OP, or anywhere after for that matter, did I suggest that society should _change_ this attribute. In fact, multiple times throughout the thread I said that homosexuality is no way inferior to heterosexuality, they’re equal choices. The question as to whether or not it’s a choice, or changeable at all, was more to question the motivation behind peoples “acceptance” of homosexuality. Do you accept it because it _can’t_ be changed? Or do you accept it because you truly don’t care whether your neighbor **chooses** to take a hard pounding in the bum by his not remotely-heterosexual life mate? Do you accept it because it can’t be changed, or do you accept it because it’s none of your business? (For me, at least, it’s the latter.) I’m a staunch advocate of personal liberties, the very idea that I’d suggest that society should change anything about an individual without their express consent is somewhat offensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sexuality-choice-or-not-and-does-it-matter/526190.md?page=6)