# SF stories or series where the 'science' was basically magic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076 "2025-04-15T18:13:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/41 "2025-04-16T13:34:37Z")
Because “magic” explicitly evokes “the supernatural” as the explanation. Any phenomenon explainable by something other than “the supernatural” is not “magic”; it is science. He does not believe in the supernatural. He does believe that there can be natural forces that we do not yet fully understand but are potentially understandable. Waving off their mechanism as “magic”, as outside the natural world, is dumb to him, even as he accepts he has no alternative to offer up at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/42 "2025-04-16T14:15:01Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And certainly much if not all of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ is hard science, I must disagree. A machine that can permanently alter a human brain remotely is pretty unscientific. Plus, suspended animation, inter dimensional FTL gateways and beings of pure thought able to manipulate matter? And, as you noted, whatever the hell the ending was. PS the centrifuge habitat wouldn’t work; it’s too small (but bigger than the sphere!). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/43 "2025-04-16T14:22:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s not always true, especially recently. Which is why I said “It depends on the fantasy, and how ‘magic’ is treated in that fantasy." I was responding to @DSeid’s claim that “ **any** true “magic” is science not yet understood” (bolding mine), and, while I think that’s fair to say of _some_ fantasy magic, I balk at applying it to _all_ fantasy magic. > [@Alessan](#): > > Most modern fantasy writers grew up playing D&D and other roleplaying games and were strongly influenced by them, so while magic exists in their world, it tends to follows clearly defined rules and mechanisms. Look at Brandon Sanderson or Jim Butcher, for example. In their books, magic is essentially a field of science they happened to invent. Yes, Sanderson is famous for his “hard magic systems,” where his “magic” works according to well-defined, explicit rules and mechanisms. (As I see it, Sanderson writes what are essentially superhero stories set in fantasy worlds.) > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As for more traditional ideas about magic, I’ve heard it said that in many ways classical magic can be considered a matter of anthropomorphizing the universe, and having it _work._ You can talk to the universe and if you know the right way to do it, the world will obey. A warding symbol will keep off evil not because it projects some sort of force, but because it _commands_ evil to not approach; more like a “No Entry” sign than a force field. Classic magic often works more along the line of rules, _“use symbol or ritual X to get result Y”_ not _“apply force X for result Y”._ Hmm, that’s an interesting way to look at it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/44 "2025-04-16T15:09:32Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > PS the centrifuge habitat wouldn’t work; it’s too small (but bigger than the sphere!). Well, it’d work, but it would have huge problems with Coriolis forces. Even the huge Space Station isn’t really big enough to avoid problems with that. I believe a study indicated that you really need a wheel with a diameter of about a kilometer to reduce Coriolis effects to where you wouldn’t be getting dizzy all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/45 "2025-04-16T15:28:50Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > _Star Wars_ “_A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away_ …” This was the first clue _Star Wars_ is not Science Fiction. Science fiction is a form of fiction that deals principally with the impact of actual or imagined science upon society or individuals. _Star Wars_ is Space Opera that deals with evil, loyalty, heroism. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/46 "2025-04-16T15:31:30Z")
A fairly obvious example that I jest recalled; the Technomages from _Babylon 5._ Technology that looks and acts like magic is their whole _thing._ > [@DSeid](#): > > Because “magic” explicitly evokes “the supernatural” as the explanation. Any phenomenon explainable by something other than “the supernatural” is not “magic”; it is science. On other boards I’ve seen it pointed out that one problems with such discussions is that people tend to mix up “science the body of knowledge” with “science the technique of gaining & understanding knowledge”. As well as “magic as the the manipulation of supernatural forces” and “magic as magical thinking”. There’s factions in fiction that approach science and technology from a mostly or completely rote/magical perspective; the Adeptus Mechanicus of Warhammer 40K being one of the more well known versions. They’ve got a tremendous amounts of scientific _knowledge,_ but aren’t scientific in their _approach_ to it at all. And there’s factions in fiction that approach magic from a scientific, rational perspective. Who may be working spells, but are far more scientific in their _mindset_ than the Adeptus Mechanicus are. Basically the issue is that on one hand the term “science” if used for both the technique and body of knowledge, while magic thanks to being unreal isn’t well defined in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/47 "2025-04-16T15:32:58Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Well, it’d work, but it would have huge problems with Coriolis forces. That’s what I meant. Every time they turned they’d get vertigo. Bending over would be worse. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > I believe a study indicated that you really need a wheel with a diameter of about a kilometer to reduce Coriolis effects to where you wouldn’t be getting dizzy all the time. Really? Wow, I wouldn’t have thought that big! I have said that I don’t think we should do any long duration space missions (such as going to Mars) without spinning the ship, though I picture the configuration not as one large cylinder, but two halves and a cable. You could make the cable as long as required. Still, a kilometer, you say! ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/48 "2025-04-16T15:37:57Z")
John Scalzi’s most recent, _When the Moon Hits Your Eye._ > The moon has turned into cheese. > > Now humanity has to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/49 "2025-04-16T15:40:47Z")
> [@susan](#): > > The moon has turned into cheese. …and it’s stinkin’ ta high heaven! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/50 "2025-04-16T15:42:33Z")
That sounds a bit like Randall Munroe’s “[Mole of Moles](https://what-if.xkcd.com/4/)” _What If_. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/51 "2025-04-16T17:32:24Z")
In one well-known FF story (“My Dinner With Doom”), Richards admits that the very concept of the supernatural terrifies him. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > a kilometer, you say! Very inconvenient, which is why there’s endless debate over how much less than a kilometer (less gravity or more Coriolis) you could make do with. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > the Adeptus Mechanicus of Warhammer 40K being one of the more well known versions. They’ve got a tremendous amounts of scientific _knowledge,_ but aren’t scientific in their _approach_ to it at all To be fair they live in a galaxy where what is indistinguishable from Hell, Demons, magic powers and incarnate gods are inescapable realities. I think these are what broke down the Imperium’s former achievements in scientific thought. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/52 "2025-04-16T17:58:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In one well-known FF story (“My Dinner With Doom”), Richards admits that the very concept of the supernatural terrifies him. And I get that! He lives by a belief that magic is just science that we don’t understand yet. To him saying something is magic is like an earlier human accepting “the demon caused the illness” because no one yet knew about germs, or that willow bark reduces fever because of magic. “Then a miracle occurs” shakes his foundational worldview. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/53 "2025-04-16T19:01:22Z")
For a series that uses highly advanced tech to explicitly emulate magic (mostly in the form of sentients and creatures) there’s John Ringo’s _Council Wars_ series, starting with _There will be Dragons_. It’s absolutely Clarke-level “indistinguishable” but since it’s a future of our own society, it’s from a deliberate effort to create our own versions of Tolkien-esque fantasy using advanced bio and nanotech. That gets played with rather less as the series continues, pushing more into Ringo’s other military scifi and fantasy themes, and has some of Ringo’s other less fortunate sexual fantasy issues detracting from the story, so I’m hesitant to really recommend it. But it does have quite a lot to say about the biology of engineered human merfolk, which do try to work around the hybrid breathing system and hypothermia issues mentioned in this very thread. The first book I mentioned (of 4 published, with more _promised_ but going nowhere for over a decade) is available as a [free e-book](https://www.baen.com/there-will-be-dragons.html) from the publisher Baen. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/54 "2025-04-16T19:17:23Z")
Oh, and of course the Great Machine in Forbidden Planet. Can project matter in any form to any place for any purpose. If that isn’t magic, I don’t know what is… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/55 "2025-04-16T19:28:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Which is basically how computer programming works. There are plenty of modern fantasy writers who have seen a parallel between casting spells and writing code. Not if you’ve spent as much time in the innards of microprocessors as I have. Someday I’m going to write a book about what happens when you interact with a computer, since I’m pretty sure that even most computer science majors don’t know these days. When I was one we had less to learn so we learned a lot more about the innards of the architecture and the operating system. > [@Nyvaak](#): > > Nice try Mr. H. The spells and potions and whatnot could never be reconciled with any coherent science, and _Glory Road_ should be considered fantasy, far outside the realms of pure S.F. And when it came out it was definitely marketed as fantasy. Now Heinlein, who wrote for the glorious _Unknown_ which was full of stories of rule-based magic, probably did try to rationalize the magic. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > A machine that can permanently alter a human brain remotely is pretty unscientific. > > Plus, suspended animation, inter dimensional FTL gateways and beings of pure thought able to manipulate matter? And, as you noted, whatever the hell the ending was. > > PS the centrifuge habitat wouldn’t work; it’s too small (but bigger than the sphere!). A machine that can map details of my insides without touching me is pretty magical - but I’ve had several MRIs. Give Mozart a pair of earbuds and a cellphone playing music and he’d be convinced you were doing magic. The space station in 2001 is taken from the ones shown in books by von Braun and Will Ley from the '50s. Technically in error is not the same thing as magic. I don’t consider plausibly explained if impossible devices to be magic. I just finished judging a contest of sf books, one of which had evil entities from a dark dimension related to Medusa and another which explicitly said something was magic. Telepathy is a more interesting case. Definitely magic, but I tended to grandfather it in to sf. But I’ve read Slan in the original Astounding version. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/56 "2025-04-16T19:37:39Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In one well-known FF story (“My Dinner With Doom”), Richards admits that the very concept of the supernatural terrifies him. There’s an issue of X-Men, where Hank “Beast” McCoy is trying to resolve some problem, and his scientific approaches aren’t working, so in desperation, he turns to magic. The spell he tries to cast requires his blood, and it specifies that it must be taken from an open cut across his palm, and not, say, drawn from his forearm with a hypodermic. Which, McCoy muses, is exactly why he hates magic - there’s absolutely no discernable difference between blood drawn from his forearm versus blood drawn from his palm, but the spell won’t work if he uses the former. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/57 "2025-04-16T19:42:39Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Can project matter in any form to any place for any purpose. That’s just Star Trek transporter and replicator technology. Oh wait… > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > And don’t get me started on transporters! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/58 "2025-04-16T19:44:14Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > A machine that can permanently alter a human brain remotely is pretty unscientific. Strictly speaking, “a machine that can permanently alter a human brain remotely,” is a completely accurate description of a sniper rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/59 "2025-04-16T19:46:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not if you’ve spent as much time in the innards of microprocessors as I have. Someday I’m going to write a book about what happens when you interact with a computer, since I’m pretty sure that even most computer science majors don’t know these days. When I was one we had less to learn so we learned a lot more about the innards of the architecture and the operating system. That doesn’t change the fact that you can be a successful “wizard” (hacker) without knowing how the forces you’re using actually work; all you have to know is some good spells and how to cast them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076/60 "2025-04-16T21:06:00Z")
Jack L. Chalker’s Flux and Anchor series had “sorcerers” whose “spells” were actually programming instructions for ancient machines that could alter and manifest matter and energy as desired. His Well World series had “magic” that was actually special instructions for the Well World Computer that maintained and controlled the universe. _The Wave and the Flame_ by Marjorie B. Kellogg had an interesting example of a planet that _apparently_ had active supernatural forces in the form of two supposed warring goddesses (according to the religion of the locals), one of summer and one of winter. It turned out that in reality what was happening was that it was a damaged, biologically based terraforming system that used (known in the setting) long range quantum mechanical effects to control the climate and weather, which they’d completely missed since it just looked like coral. A combination of the effects _looking_ “magical”, and the cause being so apparently unremarkable as to go unexamined. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Plus, suspended animation, inter dimensional FTL gateways and beings of pure thought able to manipulate matter? “One of those things is not like the other”. We _know_ that suspended animation is possible, because animals have evolved several versions of it. We can’t apply it to humans as of yet, but we can be absolutely certain it doesn’t violate any natural laws given that it exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sf-stories-or-series-where-the-science-was-basically-magic/1017076.md?page=4)