# Sgt's stripes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 10, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282 "2000-04-10T23:22:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Brian\_White](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Brian\_White](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_White)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/1 "2000-04-10T23:22:00Z")
Watching John Wayne in “Rio Grande” the other night,it occured to me that in all the old cavalry movies,the corporal’s and sergeant’s stripes are point-downward.They still are in England,Canada,et.al.,but here in the States, they’re now point-upward.When and why were they switched? All I could come up with was: A)anti-Brit sentiment,or more likely,B)the Army didn’t want their chevron’s looking like the Navy’s.Anyone got the Straight Dope? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/2 "2000-04-11T01:22:00Z")
I think if you look again, you’ll see that that the Duke’s sergeant’s stripes (or, more likely, Victor McLaughlin’s) point upward _and_ downward. Usually, the first two or three stripes are point upward. But additional stripes (called “arcs”) were added to differentiate between the various sergeants. Here’s the current insignia: Corporal – two chevrons Sergeant – three chevrons Staff Sergeant – three chevrons above one arc. Sergeant 1st Class – 3 chevrons, two arcs Master Sergeant – 3 chevrons, three arcs First Sergeant – 3 chevrons, 3 arcs, with a lozenge between them Etc. That’s how they appeared in SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON and FORT APACHE, just to name a couple of John Wayne westerns. Wayne wasn’t a mere sergeant in these, but others were. * * * “What we have here is failure to communicate.” – Strother Martin, anticipating the Internet. [www.sff.net/people/rothman](http://www.sff.net/people/rothman) ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/3 "2000-04-11T03:26:00Z")
According to this [site](http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/triv4-4a.htm) from the U.S. Navy Historical Center, chevrons (the V shaped stripes) were used from the late 1700s to 1851 (for the U.S. Army) in a number of different ways to indicate levels of rank up to captain and for to show length of service. In 1851, the U.S. Army changed to a consistent system of chevrons indicating rank of NCO’s with the points down. In 1902, the Army reversed the chevrons, putting them point up and began using the pattern we see today. The Marine Corps, on the other hand, adopted a system like the current one in 1959. * * * You don’t have a thing to worry about. I’ll have the jury eating out of my hand. Meanwhile, try to escape. _Sig by Wally M7, master signature architect to the SDMB_ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/4 "2000-04-11T13:15:00Z")
## Air Force chevrons point down. “I must leave this planet, if only for an hour.” – Antoine de St. Exupéry Are you a turtle? ---
**Author:** ![Asmodeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@Asmodeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asmodeus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/5 "2000-04-11T15:16:00Z")
Realitychuck… Not real sure why you call an upside down “rainbow” an arc…but all the rest of us Army dudes called them rockers. * * * Sex is like bridge: If you don’t have a good partner, you better have a good hand. – Charles Pierce ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/6 "2000-04-11T16:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by RealityChuck: > **I think if you look again, you’ll see that that the Duke’s sergeant’s stripes (or, more likely, Victor McLaughlin’s) point upward _and_ downward.** Just to throw in my unique ability to remember **every** line from **every** movie I have **ever** seen: Officer: _(indicating stripes on arm)_“What does three up and three down mean to you, soldier?!?” Private Cronauer: “End of an inning?” Anyone know the reference? ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/7 "2000-04-12T05:02:00Z")
A related question: In the Fail Safe remake, one of the characters (I think at NORAD) had something like 5 or 6 chevrons and 8 or 9 arcs. Is/was this a real rank? Or a Hollywood muff that was supposed to make him look like an important enlisted officer? ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/8 "2000-04-12T05:04:00Z")
Do they literally rip the stripes off you when you’re demoted? If so, I guess velcro helps, huh? * * * “They’re coming to take me away ha-ha, ho-ho, hee-hee, to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time… :)” - Napoleon IV ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_White](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Brian\_White](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_White)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/9 "2000-04-12T05:05:00Z")
Thanks for the comments,but I’m still a little confused.I know about rockers on Army/Navy/Marine/CG chevrons,but I was only talking about the first 3 stripes,going up to “buck” Sgt.rank.Why were they switched to point-up? Air Force chevrons don’t actually point,they curve.(E-7 to E-9 use Army-type chevrons on top).The movie reference is “Good Morning,Vietnam”,but it was Airman Cronauer,not Private. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/10 "2000-04-12T05:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Brian White: > \*\*The movie reference is “Good > Morning,Vietnam”,but it was Airman Cronauer,not Private. \*\* :eek: Oops! Thanks for the correction, **Brian**! :::sheepishly backs away::: ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_White](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Brian\_White](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_White)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/11 "2000-04-12T00:22:00Z")
To:mrblue92:If you’re thinking about the rather chunky Sgt who was ordered to tell the Russians information when the colonel refused to,yes,he was an Air Force Chief Master Sergeant(CMSgt),the top enlisted rank.I had to give them Brownie points for attention to detail here,since he was wearing the correct "old"insignia of 6 curved chevrons down,2 pointed ones on top,appropriate for the 60’s,when the show was set.A couple years ago,they changed it to 5 down,3 on top.The khaki uniform he was wearing was called the “1505”,and was (sadly)phased out in 1978. OK,I’m still waiting an answer to my original question! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/12 "2000-04-12T05:09:00Z")
More than you ever wanted to know on this subject, courtesy of the United State’s Army’s Institute of Heraldry (my apologies if this extends the window): [http://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/rank/enlisted.htm](http://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/rank/enlisted.htm) FWIW, I recall seeing the US Army Band playing in Dress Blues and some of the NCOs were wearing their chevrons with the points down. This was back in 1984. ---
**Author:** ![ChiefScott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@ChiefScott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChiefScott)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2000, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/13 "2000-04-12T10:44:00Z")
A couple of additional points: 1: A chevron is a heraldric device which goes all the way back to Old French. Originally, a chevron was a roof rafter, hence the name was applied to the “/”, or inverted V, found in European family crests and battle flags. ## 2: **sdimbert** – 'Twasn’t an “officer” who queried Airman Cronauer as to three up and three down. It was the first sergeant (or master sergeant, I didn’t catch whether there was a diamond on his insignia). Homepage: [http://www.bigfuckinboatwithbadassplanes.mil](http://www.bigfuckinboatwithbadassplanes.mil) Occupation: Swabbie Pounder, First Class Location: Anywhere you feckless landlubbers ain’t. Interests: Navy Chow, Port of Call, The Head, Air Superiority ICQ Number: CVN69 **– An UncleBeer Profile** “Avast and ahoy, landlubbers! Shore leave’s in August. Hide your women.” **– A WallySig** ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2000, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/14 "2000-04-13T00:45:00Z")
Chief: Actually, 'twas an officer, a senior noncommissioned one to be exact. The following categories of officer exist in the United States Military: 1. Commissioned 2. Warrant 3. Petty & 4. Non-commissioned. At least so says the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![ChiefScott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@ChiefScott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChiefScott)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2000, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/15 "2000-04-13T09:16:00Z")
Yeah, yeah, Monty. But I’m sure if you called a master sergeant an officer he (or she) would take umbrage. I know I would. * * * Homepage: [http://www.bigfuckinboatwithbadassplanes.mil](http://www.bigfuckinboatwithbadassplanes.mil) Occupation: Swabbie Pounder, First Class Location: Anywhere you feckless landlubbers ain’t. Interests: Navy Chow, Port of Call, The Head, Air Superiority ICQ Number: CVN69 **– An UncleBeer Profile** “Avast and ahoy, landlubbers! Shore leave’s in August. Hide your women.” **– A WallySig** ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2000, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/16 "2000-04-13T12:26:00Z")
Chief, just because someone doesn’t like something doesn’t mean it’s not true. Or are you not familiar with the full title of _noncommissioned **officer** _ or _chief petty **officer** _ or even _chief warrant **officer** _? Let me break it down: Noncommissioned (adjective) Officer (noun) & Chief (adjective) Petty (adjective) Officer (noun) How about this? Chief (adjective) Warrant (adjective) Officer (noun) So, anyway, if only commissioned officers are officers (which I think I proved is not the case), why are two classes of officers saluted? ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_White](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Brian\_White](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_White)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2000, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sgts-stripes/10282/17 "2000-04-13T21:09:00Z")
Monty-Thanks for the website.Yeah,the subject does get pretty involved,doesn’t it? It still didn’t say WHY they switched,so I guess the Army itself doesn’t know,which sounds about right!I guess I’ll stick to my theory that they didn’t want to look like the squids.