# Shagnasty and the Worst Anecdote in SDMB History **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468 "2005-02-17T02:49:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/181 "2005-02-18T02:55:25Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > But meanwhile, if you’re uncomfortable drinking with someone who’s having a non-alcoholic beverage, that IS ABOUT YOU. I guess this should be the time for me to point out that I don’t drink. I am one of the ones with the club soda with lime. I have a whole slew of appropriate things that I can order depending on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/182 "2005-02-18T02:59:03Z")
What if she’d ordered a slice of lime in her milk? Appropriate or inappropriate? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/183 "2005-02-18T03:02:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What if she’d ordered a slice of lime in her milk? Appropriate or inappropriate? Well there is a drink called a “Cement Mizer” made with Bailey’s Irish Creme and lime juice. I suppose if everyone else was having those and you didn’t want to feel out of place, you throw a few lime slices in a small glass of milk to get the same curdling effect. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/184 "2005-02-18T03:08:57Z")
All I can say is that if someone feels that their evening is ruined because someone else ordered a drink they would not have personally chosen, then that person is probably quite unstable and should not be mixing socially with other human beings. Who knows what other little things might set them off? Will I fold my napkin the wrong way? Accidentally turn my swizzle stick clockwise instead of the socially acceptable counter-clockwise method? Who am I dating, Howard Hughes (who, if The Aviator is correct, ordered milk in bars)? I’d rather not date people who are going to have a meltdown if I don’t conform to their sophistication rule book. I’m not that desperate. It’s people like **Shagnasty** and **msmith537** that make the rest of us feel like shit whenever we just want to go out and have a good time with friends. People shouldn’t have to step on eggshells whenever they dare to dine outside of their own home because of etiquette bullies like them. ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/185 "2005-02-18T03:10:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I mean what do people want? That we should say “good for her ordering milk in a wine bar”? Way to express your individuality? It’s freakin WIERD! MILK? WTF?!! Nobody is asking that she be lauded for ordering milk in a bar, or noticed at all. In fact, we think exactly the opposite should be the case. It should be a total non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/186 "2005-02-18T03:11:15Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > It’s people like **Shagnasty** and **msmith537** that make the rest of us feel like shit whenever we just want to go out and have a good time with friends. People shouldn’t have to step on eggshells whenever they dare to dine outside of their own home because of etiquette bullies like them. Their opinions have nothing to do with etiquette. They’re “hipness bullies”. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/187 "2005-02-18T03:19:53Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > It’s people like **Shagnasty** and **msmith537** that make the rest of us feel like shit whenever we just want to go out and have a good time with friends. People shouldn’t have to step on eggshells whenever they dare to dine outside of their own home because of etiquette bullies like them. We are both corporate consultants. When you have to present yourself to corporate clients every day and after hours, it is pretty critical to know these rules and project the right decorum. People really do judge you on them especially in business and politics. If you only care about going down to the Bigger Jigger every Friday to grab some beers then you don’t need to worry about it much. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/188 "2005-02-18T03:22:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Shagnasty** :Etiquette and social graces ARE NOT ABOUT YOU. They are to make others comfortable. Good manners in a restaurant or bar are about being considerate of other people, but not to the point of being unfair to yourself. They include things such as leaving a nice tip, being punctual and attentive, and avoiding gross behaviors such as talking with your mouth full of food or blowing your nose at the table. Fresh milk is in no way inferior to fermented fruit juice, carbonated, flavored water, water that has been altered with the flavor of the coffee plant or other plants. If a person wants to experience a fine wine, that is understandable. It is even understandable if he hopes that I will also enjoy a glass with him. But if I prefer to have fresh milk instead, and it is available, it would be extremely rude of him to try to impose his will upon me. After all, what I drink is not about _him._ And it would be silly or rude of me to waste my money or his on an expensive drink that I could not enjoy. (Trust me. This is hypothetical.) It’s also not about the bartender, the owner of the bar, the other patrons, or society in general. If fresh milk is not available to patrons, it is the responsibility of the waiter to inform the person ordering it. If it is available, then there is no reason not to serve it. _It hurts no one unless that person has placed his own needs above mine, and I am the person actually in charge of the body that will be drinking the milk._ I get to be in charge of my body. He gets to be in charge of his – including not asking me out again. Some people mistakenly think that etiquette means always accomodating the wishes of others or following a strict set of rules written by people who don’t even know you. That has never been what it’s about. The Michelin stars are arguably the most coveted ratings for fine dining in the world. Their highest rating is three stars. Very few restaurants in the world have the 3rd star. One of them in Paris serves scrambled egg ice cream. _How dare they!_ “This above all, to the expectations of other people be true.” – Little Willie Shakespeare, age 8 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/189 "2005-02-18T03:37:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I guess this should be the time for me to point out that I don’t drink. I am one of the ones with the club soda with lime. I have a whole slew of appropriate things that I can order depending on the situation. But I think you still have not explained why some bevvies are “appropriate” and which are not. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/190 "2005-02-18T03:39:02Z")
Er, sorry. “You still have not explained why some bevvies are “appropriate” and **some** are not.” (Me speak English good.) ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/191 "2005-02-18T03:39:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am dead serious about this because I think a lot of you really need it: > > 1. When you go to a bar in an elegant setting, you are in no obligation to drink alcohol. > 2. However, you should have something at the table or in your hands most of the time. It helps other people to feel more at ease (this is the core foundation of all etiquette). > 3. Standard non-alcoholic choices include club soda with lemon/lime, Bloody Mary mix, or any other mixed drink that tastes good without the alcohol. > 4. If you choose a soda, ask for a lemon or lime to go with it. With a bit of backstory to the post, and some background into the milk drinker, I’m going to backpedal a bit and say that … well, the woman probably does seem unsophisticated, at least considering the venue (both the bar and the food convention). I’m a self-admitted (but not proud) picky eater, but in a bar setting, if I’m a designated driver or I want to p --so I don’t look or feel out-of-place. Thie problem I have with the anecdote is the message it was intended to send, which I interpreted as "just as a girl who prefers milk and chick drinks to a fine pinot noir (NOT THE MERLO, FOR GOD’S SAKE!) or fine single malt us unsophisticated, a picky eater has equally childlike tastes. Again and again and again, I’ve said that “picky eater” does not equal “kiddie diet” I’ve freely admitted that my food aversions seem fucked up, but let’s put it into contest. My parents and relatives – who I love to unquestionably – consider me a picky eater because I have a severe aversion to hardboiled eggs, feel that some vegetables just taste awful on my tongue, and have a throat that reboots when faced with a few textures. That’s true … but again, it’s in the context of a world dominated by 1950s-style American food. When I go to a family gathering, a majority of what guests bring is straight from the pages of old Betty Crocker cookbooks and the Lileks “regrettable foods” Web page; unappealing casseroles and odd combinations of creamed vegetables with ham or deli meats is the rule. However, my parents have NEVER eaten at a Thai, Indian, Ethiopian or New American restaurant. If I suggest one of those venues to them when they visit, it usually gets vetoed for Applebees or a neighborhood “family restaurant” where they can have their meat-and-threes; they may not be picky eaters, but their tastes in food are grounded in Middle America, circa 1957. Now, who’s got the unsophisticated palette; the 'rents who can down deviled eggs, whirled peas and creamed beans, or their picky kid who will indulge in exotic venues, albeit not feel comfortable with absolutely everything on the menu? I’ll admit that drinking milk in an upscale wine or martini bar is odd, and that limitating your libations to chick drinks could be corollary with generally unsophisticated tastes in other areas. Will \*\*Shagnasty[/] or **Pizzabrat** admit that having an aversion to some foods does not render them unsophisticated, childlike and/or simple? ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/192 "2005-02-18T03:43:21Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I’m a self-admitted (but not proud) picky eater, but in a bar setting, if I’m a designated driver or I want to p --so I don’t look or feel out-of-place. I previewed, too, but didn’t catch that. The “p” should be followed by acing," I may drink club soda or a Coke (which looks exactly like rum and coke) between the beers and martinis. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/193 "2005-02-18T03:44:47Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > (NOT THE MERLO, FOR GOD’S SAKE!) Yeah, I know it’s “merlo **t** ”. Crap. Several bottles in my collection, inclding a couple of Napa Valley 1997s. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/194 "2005-02-18T03:49:08Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > When you have to present yourself to corporate clients every day and after hours, it is pretty critical to know these rules and project the right decorum. Rules you yourself made up, like “No drinking milk” and “You must ask for a lemon or lime wedge when ordering soda”? I realize I’m harping about this, but you can’t expect to just make up imaginary rules of etiquette and not be called on it. Continue to ignore me if you like, but you are wrong about this _and_ you’re being dishonest about it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/195 "2005-02-18T03:58:44Z")
I bet **Shag** would think less of me for taking the lime out of my Negra Modelo. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/196 "2005-02-18T04:05:46Z")
This thread just gets more and more ridiculous. One hundred and ninety some odd posts becuz of a story about a guy and girl in a bar, she orders milk and so he doesn’t call her again. Sheesh. I am sure every single one of us has blown someone off after a first or second date for something as nitpicky and meaningless as what this guy did. I just don’t get all the vitriol and anger directed at **Shagnasty** and those on his side. Sure, they’ve taken positions that may be kinda snobbish. But really, don’t you other folks think it a bit \*out of the ordinary \* for someone to walk into a place that makes their money selling alchohol and expect to be served something as mundane as **milk** , for crying out loud. I hardly think it unlikely for someone who has spent much time in a bar to expect them to even have milk. Bars don’t have milk as a general rule. You don’t believe me? Walk into your favorite bar and ask the bartender. What answer do you think you will get? And no, restaurant or hotel bars don’t count. The story is about (jeez do I have to point this out?) a **wine bar**. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/197 "2005-02-18T04:09:45Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Rules you yourself made up, like “No drinking milk” and “You must ask for a lemon or lime wedge when ordering soda”? > > I realize I’m harping about this, but you can’t expect to just make up imaginary rules of etiquette and not be called on it. Continue to ignore me if you like, but you are wrong about this _and_ you’re being dishonest about it. I did not make them up. My wife’s family is one of the foremost families in the gourmet foods industry. They own gourmet foods importing and manufacturing companies in the U.S., Italy, and France. My wife is the Executive Vice President. As part of that, I attend parties, banquets, and dinners all over the U.S. and Europe. Many of these are extremely exclusive affairs and I have been coached about the expected rules of behavior beforehand. Those are some of the tips I have been given by family, friends, restaurant owners, CEO’s, and chefs. Don’t read too much into them and try to analyze them like they are the Dead Sea Scrolls. You shouldn’t need a rulebook to make it through an exclusive affair. You do need a bit of class and some common sense however. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/198 "2005-02-18T04:17:38Z")
I’m confused now. I thought we were talking about a casual date in a local bar. When did we move on to dinner with the Rockefellers? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/199 "2005-02-18T04:18:01Z")
**Shag** , I think you would get more agreement with the points you’ve tried to make if you used phrases like “common sense” more often in discussing this issue and avoided ones like “unsophisticated” and “class”. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/200 "2005-02-18T04:26:16Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m confused now. I thought we were talking about a casual date in a local bar. When did we move on to dinner with the Rockefellers? We never talked “casual” and “local” only applies if that includes all the establishments in Manhattan. Lets not get into the Rockefellers. They wouldn’t know a 12 piece place setting from a 15 piece if the fish fork jumped up and boinked them in the nose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468.md?page=11)