# Shagnasty and the Worst Anecdote in SDMB History **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468 "2005-02-17T02:49:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/141 "2005-02-17T22:39:40Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > Ordering milk in a bar is well outside the normal parameters of what is socially acceptable for an adult to order at a bar on a date with another adult. If this is true, it seems odd that the bar would serve milk in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/142 "2005-02-17T22:45:38Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If this is true, it seems odd that the bar would serve milk in the first place. They don’t SERVE milk. They happen to have some milk on ice as a mixer for other things. It is not always of the highest quality. An accommadating waiter or bartender will give you just about whatever you want as long at it exists in the bar but that doesn’t mean that it is on the menu. ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/143 "2005-02-17T22:50:03Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I had thought I was clear. Deciding which side of the road we will all drive on is a completely arbitrary decision. There’s nothing morally better about either side. We’ve just formalized it by law- so that we all understand that it’s what you’re supposed to do and there are no messy misunderstandings. (aside: this analogy is usually very well received in my seminars, since most people here drive a lot) It’s a flawed analogy though. Order milk at a bar, and you’re subjecting yourself to the consequences of social laws, which are hardly universal; drive on the wrong side of the road and you’re subjecting yourself to the consequences of the laws of physics. Though either set of laws are arbitrary in a sense, only one of them can be changed; looking down upon someone for breaking such a small social law is easily argued as needlessly intolerant. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/144 "2005-02-17T23:01:42Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > They don’t SERVE milk. They happen to have some milk on ice as a mixer for other things. It is not always of the highest quality. An accommadating waiter or bartender will give you just about whatever you want as long at it exists in the bar but that doesn’t mean that it is on the menu. So the lady ordered something that was not on the menu. I see two possible explanations for this: 1. She was sophisticated enough to realize that it’s possible to get drinks not on the menu and demanded that they bring her some milk. High-maintenance, yes. A rube, no. or 1. Her companion expected her to order a drink in a fancy, unfamiliar bar without seeing any sort of drink list. She didn’t want alcohol that night, and since she had no way of knowing what non-alcoholic choices were available she took a shot in the dark and asked for milk. This does seem a bit unsophisticated, not because there’s anything wrong with drinking milk but because most bars don’t normally serve milk. I’m a non-drinker and even I know that. Many restaurants don’t even serve milk, because it’s more expensive and more trouble to store than other beverages. However, her innocence or ignorance in this regard would be an insignificant shortcoming compared to her date’s clod-like and ungentlemanly behavior in putting her on the spot that way. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/145 "2005-02-17T23:07:54Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > It’s not a matter of having it both ways. it’s a matter of there being a large swath of middle ground out there that won’t offend anyone or turn anyone off. Just how in the hell do you _know_ that? This guy was apparently appalled that the woman went to a “wine and beer” bar and proceeded to drink something other than wine or beer, thereby showing her utter crassness. For all we know (and based on what we _do_ know, I’d lay money on), he’d’ve been equally as offended/turned off if she’d’ve ordered coffee or club soda. You can’t begin to know what this guy, or any other guy for that matter, would or would not find offensive – including ordering milk, especially given that several people here have stated unequivocally that they would, indeed, NOT find it offensive or a turn-off. Therefore this argument holds absolutely no water. > [@Stonebow](#): > > This guy took her out, she did something pretty silly in his eyes, and that’s that. She allowed her personal preference to get in the way of the ‘smooth running’ of their time, and it pretty much ended the date. Notice that’s the same criticism leveled at Picky Eaters- not that they have a limited diet, but that accommodating them usually ruins the ‘flow’ of social interaction. Are you fucking kidding me? Ordering something of your own personal preference to _drink_, ruins the “smooth running flow” of the evening? What the fuck kind of drugs must one be taking to even think such a thing, let alone try to argue it? > [@Stonebow](#): > > We can debate about how much of an ass the guy is, or how snobbish I am, whatever. But to say that **Shagnasty** was being inconsistent is just untrue. Wrong. He was being completely inconsistent, but I’m not the least surprised that you’re too blinded by your snobbery to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/146 "2005-02-17T23:14:07Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I am a fucking Psychic. Bow to me! > > -stonebow, the totally awesome psychic snob well actually more like a nouvelle snob maybe you and Shagnasty can see if you can Foders to give you both a 4 star rating? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/147 "2005-02-17T23:14:42Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > So the lady ordered something that was not on the menu. I see two possible explanations for this: > > 1. She was sophisticated enough to realize that it’s possible to get drinks not on the menu and demanded that they bring her some milk. > > High-maintenance, yes. A rube, no. > > or > > 1. Her companion expected her to order a drink in a fancy, unfamiliar bar without seeing any sort of drink list. She didn’t want alcohol that night, and since she had no way of knowing what non-alcoholic choices were available she took a shot in the dark and asked for milk. > > This does seem a bit unsophisticated, not because there’s anything wrong with drinking milk but because most bars don’t normally serve milk. I’m a non-drinker and even I know that. Many restaurants don’t even serve milk, because it’s more expensive and more trouble to store than other beverages. However, her innocence or ignorance in this regard would be an insignificant shortcoming compared to her date’s clod-like and ungentlemanly behavior in putting her on the spot that way. Fancy bars (or any bars with a full liquor stock) don’t have menus that list everything available. They have wine lists. They may have a beer list. They may have a list of any unusual or rare liquors. It is expected that the customer knows drinks that he or she likes. There are hundreds of possible choices and the variations on those extends it into the thousands. A good bartender can create many, many things for you. However, you shouldn’t order milk from the mixer cooler any more than you should ask for a whole bowl of Maraschino cherries to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/148 "2005-02-17T23:23:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > They don’t SERVE milk. They happen to have some milk on ice as a mixer for other things. Not that I want to quibble, but I will anyway. As I tried to point out earlier in this thread - I would have to say any milk offered to a patron in a bar, as opposed to in a restaurant, should be viewed verrrrry skeptically. Bars, at least none that I know of, actually use **milk** in any drinks. Far more likely they will use cream or half and half. Call me picky, but I doubt someone asking for milk and being given a glass of half and half or cream would find it palatable. If you don’t believe me go pour yourself a nice big cold glass of cream and try to choke it down. To repeat myself: After 18 years in the bar and restaurant biz, I would advise anyone who is served a glass of milk in a bar to give it a good sniff before chugging it down. Bars, as opposed to restaurants, generally do not keep milk on hand simply because they don’t use it for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/149 "2005-02-17T23:29:19Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Just how in the hell do you _know_ that? This guy was apparently appalled that the woman went to a “wine and beer” bar and proceeded to drink something other than wine or beer, thereby showing her utter crassness. For all we know (and based on what we _do_ know, I’d lay money on), he’d’ve been equally as offended/turned off if she’d’ve ordered coffee or club soda. You can’t begin to know what this guy, or any other guy for that matter, would or would not find offensive – including ordering milk, especially given that several people here have stated unequivocally that they would, indeed, NOT find it offensive or a turn-off. Therefore this argument holds absolutely no water. > > Are you fucking kidding me? Ordering something of your own personal preference to _drink_, ruins the “smooth running flow” of the evening? What the fuck kind of drugs must one be taking to even think such a thing, let alone try to argue it? > > Wrong. He was being completely inconsistent, but I’m not the least surprised that you’re too blinded by your snobbery to see it. John wasn’t “appalled”. Shocked and a little confused were more like it. I still know him and he chuckles about it. Suzie does to but for slightly different reasons. Let me give you lesson on social etiquette. This comes from years working as a bartender and waiter in fancy establishments and then marrying into a family whose business is international fancy foods and dining. I am dead serious about this because I think a lot of you really need it: 1. When you go to a bar in an elegant setting, you are in no obligation to drink alcohol. 2. However, you should have something at the table or in your hands most of the time. It helps other people to feel more at ease (this is the core foundation of all etiquette). 3. Standard non-alcoholic choices include club soda with lemon/lime, Bloody Mary mix, or any other mixed drink that tastes good without the alcohol. 4. If you choose a soda, ask for a lemon or lime to go with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/150 "2005-02-17T23:44:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Fancy bars (or any bars with a full liquor stock) don’t have menus that list everything available. They have wine lists. They may have a beer list. They may have a list of any unusual or rare liquors. I’ve never been in a drinking establishment that did not have a list of non-alcoholic beverages available. Maybe I’m just not going to snotty enough places. Lucky me. > [@](#): > > \*It is expected that the customer knows drinks that he or she likes. There are hundreds of possible choices and the variations on those extends it into the thousands. A good bartender can create many, many things for you. \*Well, the lady in question apparently knew she liked milk. > [@](#): > > \*However, you shouldn’t order milk from the mixer cooler any more than you should ask for a whole bowl of Maraschino cherries to eat. \*And all this time I’ve been getting juice or soda in bars, little realizing that it was social death to order a beverage that could be used as a mixer. It’s a wonder they let me out in public. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/151 "2005-02-17T23:46:33Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Just how in the hell do you _know_ that? This guy was apparently appalled that the woman went to a “wine and beer” bar and proceeded to drink something other than wine or beer, thereby showing her utter crassness. For all we know (and based on what we _do_ know, I’d lay money on), he’d’ve been equally as offended/turned off if she’d’ve ordered coffee or club soda. You can’t begin to know what this guy, or any other guy for that matter, would or would not find offensive True. We can’t know. And yet that little fact has not prevented a bunch of posters from declaring him to be a snob, a wino, and “apparently appalled.” I understand people’s rush to defend a woman’s right to drink milk, but these same people are quick to condemn a man they’ve never met, apparently convinced that he was under some sort of legal or moral obligation to form a permanent relationship with this woman. Let’s summarize what we know so far: Suzie made an unusual but perfectly legal choice in libation. Mr. Bigbux concluded that someone who made such a choice was not his type. Other factors may or may not have contributed to his decision. Suzie, whom we all agree would have been better off in a different relationship, is, in fact, in a different relationship. **Shagnasty** simply confused the words “unsophisticated” and “simpleton.” No laws were broken, nobody died, and everybody ended up with more or less what they wanted. What’s the issue again? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/152 "2005-02-17T23:46:47Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Perhaps this is the simpleton in me, but if I was on a date with a woman that ordered milk, I’d think I was out with Pat Boone. My mind would immediately draw conclusions about what other “dangerous” behaviors she refused to engage in. Premarital oral sex being one of them. > > Of course, if I liked her enough, I’d stick it out long enough to get more empirical evidence. Or, maybe she had an ulcer? Besides, drinking milk is important for young women, because of the risk of osteoporosis. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/153 "2005-02-17T23:55:01Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > What’s the issue again? Mostly that **Shagnasty** is an asshole. I don’t know that it’s an “issue” so much, as there doesn’t really seem to be much room for argument on that score. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/154 "2005-02-18T00:05:42Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Let me give you lesson on social etiquette. This comes from years working as a bartender and waiter in fancy establishments and then marrying into a family whose business is international fancy foods and dining. I am dead serious about this because I think a lot of you really need it: > > 1. When you go to a bar in an elegant setting, you are in no obligation to drink alcohol. > 2. However, you should have something at the table or in your hands most of the time. It helps other people to feel more at ease (this is the core foundation of all etiquette). > 3. Standard non-alcoholic choices include club soda with lemon/lime, Bloody Mary mix, or any other mixed drink that tastes good without the alcohol. > 4. If you choose a soda, ask for a lemon or lime to go with it. This is the most pretentious garbage I’ve seen in a good long time. Etiquette demands that we must order a wedge of citrus with our sodas? Why? They usually come that way, and if they don’t I don’t care. I’m not going to make a fuss about it. How does a piece of lemon hanging on the edge of my glass make other people feel more at ease? If I am not making a scene, endangering my health, demanding something that is unavailable or extremely difficult to prepare, or expecting someone else to pick up a hefty tab for me, then I should be able to drink whatever I like. Obsessing over other people’s failure to request a fruit garnish with their non-alcoholic beverage is not a mark of good manners or class. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/155 "2005-02-18T00:06:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Mostly that **Shagnasty** is an asshole. I don’t know that it’s an “issue” so much, as there doesn’t really seem to be much room for argument on that score. I am pretty sure that most people were quite clear on that already (I know my family and friends are). Trying to argue a position that has been clearly settled for years is a little fruitless and a waste of time don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/156 "2005-02-18T00:10:49Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > It has been marketed to adults over the last decade due to a very long tradition of it being a children’s drink. Actually, they’ve been doing it for well over 30 years. Can you really blame people who have been hearing that message their whole lives for not thinking of milk as a children’s drink? > [@](#): > > There are also ‘laws’ to our interactions with other people. They are unwritten, but carry the weight of tradition, and in most cases, practicality, with them. I think you’ll notice that society is becoming more and more casual. The “laws” that aren’t very practical (or unduly exclusionary for no coherent reason) eventually fade away because they are fucking pointless. When you prop up these asinine laws and give them as much credence as more sensible rules, you make yourself sound like a fucking idiot who can’t tell the difference. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > 1. However, you should have something at the table or in your hands most of the time. It helps other people to feel more at ease (this is the core foundation of all etiquette). > 2. Standard non-alcoholic choices include club soda with lemon/lime, Bloody Mary mix, or any other mixed drink that tastes good without the alcohol. > 3. If you choose a soda, ask for a lemon or lime to go with it. This shit is hilarious. Having something in your hands makes others feel more at ease? Where does this tripe come from? Does it still count if “something” is a penis? And if making people feel at ease is the core foundation of etiquette, then why not let them drink whatever the hell they want without judgement? If someone was judging my worth based on such random shit, I’m pretty damn certain I wouldn’t feel at ease. As far as a tiny piece of fruit making a soda sophisticated, well, all I can do is laugh. > [@msmith537](#): > > It’s freakin WIERD! MILK? WTF?!! What is this woman? A psychopath? I really don’t even know how to respond to this. What fucking planet are you from? > [@Shayna](#): > > What the fuck kind of drugs must one be taking to even think such a thing, let alone try to argue it? Ethanol. But we already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/157 "2005-02-18T00:16:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If I am not making a scene, endangering my health, demanding something that is unavailable or extremely difficult to prepare, or expecting someone else to pick up a hefty tab for me, then I should be able to drink whatever I like. Obsessing over other people’s failure to request a fruit garnish with their non-alcoholic beverage is not a mark of good manners or class. Quite the opposite. Etiquette and social graces ARE NOT ABOUT YOU. They are to make others comfortable and to ease social interactions using a common set of decorum and niceities. There are a lot of throwbacks from the trashiestone era in this thread that are having unusual difficulty with these concepts. I for one, am appalled at the quality of graduates that our nation’s finishing schools are turning out these days. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/158 "2005-02-18T00:20:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or, maybe she had an ulcer? Actually, milk and ulcers are **not** a good idea, contrary to common belief. Look here. [Milk and Ulcers.](http://www.nutramed.com/digestion/ulcer.htm) Osteoperosis? Yes. Ulcers? No. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/159 "2005-02-18T00:21:28Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > They are to make others comfortable Only most of them don’t. And some even have the opposite effect. I really can’t say I’ve ever anyone who said, “I just couldn’t feel comfortable around that guy. I mean, his hands were so… empty.” ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468/160 "2005-02-18T00:24:01Z")
Clarification: by “most of them,” I mean the ridiculous shit mentioned in this thread. Also, stick the word “met” into the previous post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-and-the-worst-anecdote-in-sdmb-history/290468.md?page=9)