# Shagnasty, stop apologizining for the Nazis, you racist fuck. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 1, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418 "2014-05-01T04:18:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/81 "2014-05-02T00:07:14Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I would genuinely like to see a reasoned case against the post by Shagnasty that you quoted (or at least a relative authority on the subject to assure me he is wrong). Maybe it makes me a complete weirdo, but I like to know that my feelings are justified. Problem is ( if you want to call it a problem ) is that race has been debated on this board approximately 1 billion times, with scientific racialist arguments coming up as a topic in about 3/4 or more of those, at least in the last several years. Most people are exasperated/done with the topic. It is tired and _tiring_ to engage in - it is one of several debates I just don’t do anymore unless I have a late night attack of temporary insanity. I don’t think the science is there for what “race realists” claim or assume. They do. But I refuse to engage over it anymore because it just gives me a headache. I assume plenty of others are in the same boat. If you must there are plenty of threads to search out in Great Debates and The Pit talking about this stuff in varying levels of vituperation. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/82 "2014-05-02T00:09:15Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It isn’t technically racism simply because I know enough to realize there is no such thing as strictly delineated race especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africans. Many of them are less related to each other than they are to most other people in the world. A better term would be ‘Populationist’. I do believe that much of the evidence supports that there are differences among populations both large and small. > > However, there is no hate or malicious involved. I am just as happy to see some populations of Kenyans and Ethiopians consistently win marathons as I am when Jews rack up a statistically unlikely number of Nobel prizes in science. The difference could be genetic or biological or strictly environmental but the differences clearly exist today. I haven’t won anything remotely similar and probably never will but they are all welcome at a party at my house. Or, it could be that you just confirmed everyone’s suspicions. Congrats: you’re a racist. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/83 "2014-05-02T00:33:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I don’t think the science is there for what “race realists” claim or assume. They do. But I refuse to engage over it anymore because it just gives me a headache. I assume plenty of others are in the same boat. Indeed. And I’m not going to get involved in another debate about the definition of racism, at least not today. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/84 "2014-05-02T00:34:03Z")
We had at least one [whole thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16827216) on whether it is racist to claim that one race is inherently genetically inferior on average in intelligence. I hold that it is – and that it doesn’t matter why the claimer makes this claim. Basically, it doesn’t get much more “pure” racism than “black people are less intelligent than white people”. There’s no way to say that, even with fancy words like “genetics” and “populations”, that’s _not_ racist. So if **Shagnasty** is claiming that black people have inferior genes for intelligence, on average (which, I’ll note, is a claim with absolutely zero evidence – we have no idea which genes are responsible for high or low intelligence, much less their prevalence in different populations), then he has made a racist claim. I try not to make judgments about people’s minds and intentions, so I generally don’t call people racists, and I won’t call anyone a racist here. But that claim is definitely a racist claim. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/85 "2014-05-02T00:39:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or, it could be that you just confirmed everyone’s suspicions. Congrats: you’re a racist. :dubious: More likely, we just confirmed the fact that you can’t read well and you really like to put irrelevant comments into threads because you have nothing nothing better to do. No, I am not a racist any meaningful sense of the word. I was raised by a black woman that I loved more than my own biological family members for God sakes. I just like the study of human origins and read about it extensively. My academic background is in behavioral neuroscience. [The National Genographic Group](https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/) has done great work on this and the field has advanced tremendously in the past 10 years. A very high level summary is that not all human populations are the same and it is much more complex than previously assumed. Most ignorant liberals interpret any suggestions regarding population differences as pure heresy but the science backs it up and is growing all the time. Calls of racism are a lazy way of discrediting a person but you also need to show that what someone said was wrong and nobody has done that for any of my cited posts here. Who wants to do that here? Like I said, I love people of all different ethnicities and I am almost certainly kinder and more personal with them than you are just judging by the chances. I gave no message of hate or even mild dislike because there is none. Back off the racism claims because people of all different backgrounds that know me personally would be the first to claim otherwise. Step away from the early 90’s and address the actual questions posed rather than just try to smear a person with lazy and unfounded PC speak. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/86 "2014-05-02T01:11:45Z")
I don’t think **Shagnasty** is racist. I just think he’s not a very good scientist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/87 "2014-05-02T01:21:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Just to play Devil’s Advocate here, there seems to me to be a difference between what **Shagnasty** is saying and “traditional” racism. What he’s saying isn’t impossible or illogical, and it need not be based on bias or prejudice. In fact, it seems entirely likely to me that there _could_ be small mental differences between races. I don’t see why we should assume that’s automatically incorrect except that it would be inconvenient and unpleasant if it were true. > > What is it that’s disagreeable about **Shagnasty’s** post? Is he wrong, or is he correct but saying uncomfortable things? Does it make a difference? What Shagnasty said in the post quoted to which you were responding is pretty much what I recall being told in an anthropology lecture at college, albeit about 30 years ago. I don’t know that the lecturer was racist: I don’t think so, he certainly seemed disappointed and suspicious of the results of the studies that he was describing. I guess, per some posters in this thread, the lecturer was racist and I would be too if I relayed the content of the lecture. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/88 "2014-05-02T01:34:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think **Shagnasty** is racist. > > I just think he’s not a very good scientist. 🙂 🙂 I never claimed to be a good scientist. I was on that track at one point but found it too tedious and boring for my tastes. I love reading other people’s research summaries from 5 years prior though. Anyone that would call me a racist is an ignorant fool and I would have a lot of explaining to do based on my lifestyle. I still haven’t heard any good rebuttals to any of my posts though. Is there anyone willing to refute my claims at any level? I will take them if anyone can do it. Otherwise, you may want to rethink your position. It is impressive that we can go from anecdotes about German POW camps in the South during WWII to modern day accustoms of racism from a person who doesn’t display any of those traits. Tunnel vision isn’t a good thing and some people here are showing signs of that. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/89 "2014-05-02T01:35:40Z")
I note that Bozuit is British and Princhester Australian, correct? I’m Canadian myself. I’ve noticed that anything remotely related to race can be extremely touchy among Americans and that some take a very niggardly\* interpretation of anything that might be racist. Which includes racial realism and the suggestion that some racial groups are on average less intelligent. \*[Controversies about the word niggardly - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22) Note specifically a comment from a British magazine: T"he Economist later pointed out with amusement that it received a letter from a reader in Boston who thought the word “niggardly” was inappropriate. “Why do we get such letters only from America?” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/90 "2014-05-02T02:48:31Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > More likely, we just confirmed the fact that you can’t read well and you really like to put irrelevant comments into threads because you have nothing nothing better to do. No, I am not a racist any meaningful sense of the word. I was raised by a black woman that I loved more than my own biological family members for God sakes. “I’m not a racist – some of my best friends are black!” Try again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/91 "2014-05-02T03:05:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > “I’m not a racist – some of my best friends are black!” Try again. :rolleyes: I have many black friends and some black family members as well as Chinese and Hispanic ones. I love them all. I seriously doubt that you have any of that. Do not insult a person until you know their circumstances personally because it is all just abusive theoretical bullshit that is not true in the least. Your circumstances appear to be terrible based on everything you have ever sent me in PM’s. Back off and quit screwing with me until you have something worthwhile to contribute to this board. That will likely never happen. I don’t stalk people on this board or compile insane lists going many years back on previous posts. Other people like yourself think that is normal behavior. Let me ask you again, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or do you just want to continue to compile bizarre lists and do drive-by insults with no value added for anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/92 "2014-05-02T03:21:15Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I have many black friends and some black family members as well as Chinese and Hispanic ones. I love them all. I seriously doubt that you have any of that. Do not insult a person until you know their circumstances personally because it is all just abusive theoretical bullshit that is not true in the least. Your circumstances appear to be terrible based on everything you have ever sent me in PM’s. Back off and quit screwing with me until you have something worthwhile to contribute to this board. That will likely never happen. I don’t stalk people on this board or compile insane lists going many years back on previous posts. Other people like yourself think that is normal behavior. > > Let me ask you again, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or do you just want to continue to compile bizarre lists and do drive-by insults with no value added for anyone? Oh snap! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/93 "2014-05-02T03:47:21Z")
When have I EVER, sent you a PM? ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/94 "2014-05-02T03:49:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What Shagnasty said in the post quoted to which you were responding is pretty much what I recall being told in an anthropology lecture at college, albeit about 30 years ago. I don’t know that the lecturer was racist: I don’t think so, he certainly seemed disappointed and suspicious of the results of the studies that he was describing. I guess, per some posters in this thread, the lecturer was racist and I would be too if I relayed the content of the lecture. I can confirm having a similar lecture within the past decade. Now, I’m in the humanities, so bear with me here, but… Recently I recall reading about the discovery that “People of European and Asian descent today retain Neanderthal DNA that may affect their hair, skin, fertility, predisposition to certain diseases and possibly other characteristics, a new study in the journal Nature suggests.” (Pulled from [Here](http://news.discovery.com/human/evolution/how-neanderthal-dna-changed-humans-140129.htm).) Pause. Is this racist? Is it evidence of Scientific Racism that the question about European/Asian descended people today could be genetically different from people of African descent (given, of course, that we all probably came out of Africa originally)? If acknowledging the above _is_ somehow racist, why? And at what point would a hypothesis _become_ racist? One thing I recall from science is the concept of “hybrid vigor.” It can be seen in the animal kingdom. Would it be racist for a scientist to propose a hypothesis about a population of Homo Sapiens Sapiens which mated with at least one (and, according to other sources, probably two) related-but-now-extinct hominids that attempted to determine whether their offspring exhibited any hybrid vigor? If the hypothesis were tested and, say, it panned out that mating with Neanderthals made the modern-day populations descended from Europe/Asia actually made that branch _worse_ off in any factors (intelligence, health, predisposition or immunity from certain diseases, or whatever,) would the theory be considered “Scientific Racism”? I legitimately haven’t seen any anecdotal evidence in my life, especially now as a professor, that would verify any racial stereotypes, but I’m intrigued that the tone of some posters seems to be one of “we do not even speak of such things” rather than a sense of intellectual curiosity. Disclaimer: I’m a southerner, so racist by default and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/95 "2014-05-02T03:53:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > When have I EVER, sent you a PM? Claims of amnesia are not a good sign Guin. Do you want me to send them back to you? I will and do not ever send me one again. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/96 "2014-05-02T04:07:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Claims of amnesia are not a good sign Guin. Do you want me to send them back to you? I will and do not ever send me one again. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/97 "2014-05-02T04:21:41Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Claims of amnesia are not a good sign Guin. Do you want me to send them back to you? I will and do not ever send me one again. THAT was in response to something YOU sent to ME. So don’t you DARE accuse ME of stalking you. You asked me a question and I answered it. You’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/98 "2014-05-02T04:24:22Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Disclaimer: I’m a southerner, so racist by default and all that. You could have just said this and saved yourself all the typing. Right **Guin**? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/99 "2014-05-02T04:42:11Z")
Oh snap, shit’s getting real in here. I’m going to need to see screen shots. Just kidding, no I’m not. Guin, apologize to Shags. He’s not racist because his mammy was black. Hug it out. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418/100 "2014-05-02T06:17:34Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > I can confirm having a similar lecture within the past decade. > > Now, I’m in the humanities, so bear with me here, but… > > Recently I recall reading about the discovery that “People of European and Asian descent today retain Neanderthal DNA that may affect their hair, skin, fertility, predisposition to certain diseases and possibly other characteristics, a new study in the journal Nature suggests.” (Pulled from [Here](http://news.discovery.com/human/evolution/how-neanderthal-dna-changed-humans-140129.htm).) I like how you posted this article, a favorite of scientific racists, instead of just mentioning the fact that alleles for skin color genes vary with population. > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Is it evidence of Scientific Racism that the question about European/Asian descended people today could be genetically different from people of African descent (given, of course, that we all probably came out of Africa originally)? Natives of Bergamo, Italy differ genetically from natives of Nicosia, Italy. So big fucking deal. I differ genetically from my neighbor. Big fucking deal. People differ genetically. Big fucking deal. > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > If acknowledging the above _is_ somehow racist, why? And at what point would a hypothesis _become_ racist? When you use it to justify a racist notion with absolutely no chain of evidence supporting it while ignoring much more obvious and well-tested causes for differences in IQ between people. Looks like a duck. > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > One thing I recall from science is the concept of “hybrid vigor.” It can be seen in the animal kingdom. Would it be racist for a scientist to propose a hypothesis about a population of Homo Sapiens Sapiens which mated with at least one (and, according to other sources, probably two) related-but-now-extinct hominids that attempted to determine whether their offspring exhibited any hybrid vigor? Oh my favorite part! WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF FOLLOW ME ON MY CHAIN OF WHAT IF. Certainly walks like a duck. > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > If the hypothesis were tested and, say, it panned out that mating with Neanderthals made the modern-day populations descended from Europe/Asia actually made that branch _worse_ off in any factors (intelligence, health, predisposition or immunity from certain diseases, or whatever,) would the theory be considered “Scientific Racism”? Quacks like a duck. > [@BlakeTyner](#): > > I’m intrigued that the tone of some posters seems to be one of “we do not even speak of such things” rather than a sense of intellectual curiosity. It is a stupid race realist!! Professor JAQ, tenured faculty of Race Realist University. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-stop-apologizining-for-the-nazis-you-racist-fuck/687418.md?page=6)