Shake the Nation can bite my ass.

You’re going to have to explain ‘expediency’ to me, then. I don’t see it. What is expedient about legalizing a woman’s right to a safe abortion because they demand it?

It boils down to whether what people want actually grants rights or takes them away. I’m all for people demanding changes that grant rights, and oppose demands for change that take them away.

Yes it does. This is not to say that everything anyone does to their body is positive - like drug addiction - and for such things there ought to be serious outreach programs to give them the help they need. Abortion doesn’t fall into that category.

A fairly old thread in GD - I believe it was called “We’re going straight to hell, I know it” and seems to have been culled - addresses the question of the number of actual late-term abortions in the United States. It’s a miniscule number, far less than 1% annually. Only one or two doctors in the United States perform third-trimester abortions. There may be a question of fetal rights in those cases that aren’t done for medical reasons, but it does not have a bearing on the question of abortion overall.

Cite, please? And just because one country with a forced population limitation program and a forced sterilization program performs abortions in a particularly inhumane manner doesn’t invalidate the question of whether women have a right to it.

No, and I certainly don’t think abortion supporters would line up behind China in supporting it either.

That’s a choice. There aren’t any legal movements afoot to force women to engage in unprotected sex. She has the right to choose abstinence, she has the right to choose to be sexually active, and she has the right to choose an abortion should that activity result in an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. Only one of those rights is under attack.

Which may mean financial or emotional ruin as the woman may be fiscally unable to provide for an infant’s needs, special or otherwise, or not emotionally mature enough to be a good parent.

Anybody who thinks abortion is a ‘do over’ is shallow. There isn’t anybody on this side of the fence that thinks the choice to have an abortion is made lightly.

To me it is. A woman has the ultimate decision over what happens to her body. She can listen to the opinions of others but it is her choice and her choice alone.

If it’s true that 43,000,000 abortions have taken place since Roe v. Wade, then thank God for that! That’s 43,000,000 additional public school students, job seekers, drivers, electric power consumers, water drinkers, etc., etc., etc. that we didn’t/don’t have. We have enough problems here with 273,000,000 people, let alone 316,000,000!

Um… yeah. And now for our next contestant…

**

Conferring a right just because somebody demands it is expediancy. Suggesting that we confer this right just to avoid back-alley abortions is also an argument of expediancy.

Neither of those are good reasons to confer a right that we would not otherwise confer. People may demand the right to plastic explosives, and may injure themselves trying to make homemade ones if we don’t give them to them.

That does not mean that we should allow people to just go ahead and purchase dangerous plastique.

Doing something for the wrong reasons, simply to avoid unpleasantness is giving way to expediancy. Please tell me you understand.

I guess that means you don’t understand.

I suppose then you are in favor of the right for anyone, including children to purchase high-explosives. That would be granting a right, wouldn’t it?

And you would be against legislation to limit the availability of high explosives because that would be taking away a right, wouldn’t it?

Maybe we should just hand out plastique at schools. You can shape it like Play-doh, and when you get sick of that you can blow up buildings with it.

I’m sure a serious outreach problem will be a great comfort to a child born with fetal alcohol or drug related birth defects.

But no. God forbid we should interfere with the woman’s right to fuck up her baby for the rest of it’s life and cause the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars to get it through the hell of drug addiction it was born with, more in the costs of neonatal care for a premature infants, and more for the rest of it’s life since it won’t be equipped to care for itself. Good deal!

No. Clearly we should encourage and allow women to abuse themselves with drugs, and then society will take of their children. Let’s not make anybody responsible for any of their actions. How about that?

It doesn’t? You’ve just conceded that their are times when there are such things as fetal rights. Exactly when in your opinion does a fetus get rights? At what point does the fetuses right to life supersede the mother’s right to choose whether she wants to carry it.

It seems very germaine to me.

You’ve been arguing that a women has an inviolable right to choose. That it’s her choice only.
Now you’re saying that their should be restrictions to this right. Exactly what restrictions are you suggesting.

No. It doesn’t work that way. You don’t have the right to murder. Abortion results in the death of a human life. A woman has rights associated with what happens to her body, but given fetal rights which you’ve conceded may exist in some form, the question of abortion becomes one of how you treat matters when these rights conflict.

There’s long waiting lists for adoption. I don’t think anybody on either side of the abortion debate is talking about doing away with adoption. That’s certainly an option for a woman in such circumstances. Did you forget that there’s such a thing?

I know of instances where the biggest consideration was finding the $75.00 the “free clinic” charged. I think that occasionally it is made all too lightly.

Well this conflicts with your stated opinions concerning late term abortions. Until you define your standpoint better, I’m not sure what to make of it, other than you seem to use “ultimate” without really meaning it.

You total dork. There is nothing expedient about guaranteeing a medically and legally safe environment for women who wish to terminate a pregnancy. Death from back-alley abortions is a serious consideration and not merely an unpleasantness to be avoided. By calling them ‘expedient’ you’re trivializing two of the central reasons for legalizing abortion.

The hell are you talking about, ‘would not otherwise confer’? Abortions were legal in the US until the 1870s. It’s not like abortions have been illegal since time immemorial and then a bunch of godless women flew in the face of nature to claim something they saw as a right.

All the examples you’ve cited deal with destruction of living, thinking human beings. Abortion is nowhere near in the same category.

I do understand. I just don’t believe that women demanding a right to a clean and safe abortion is a wrong reason for legalizing it.

No, I’m not. I’m not in favor of giving children the means to destroy themselves. I am, however, in favor of giving women the right to control their lives and not be forced into doing something they’re not willing to do.

Well, if I saw the ownership of plastic explosives as a basic human right, I suppose I would see things that way. But I don’t see it as a right.

Remind me to never recommend you for a Montessori job. :rolleyes:

I do not argue that a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy translates into the right for her to destroy her body during a pregnancy, should she choose to carry a baby to term. She has obligations that stem from making the choice to keep a baby, and she should get all the help she needs in order to kick whatever problems she has that would threaten the baby’s health. And I’d love to see where you caught me asserting that women should be encouraged to use drugs.

Possibly - in third trimester pregnanices (which is what I meant when I said ‘those cases’ above - pardon the lack of clarity) where abortions are not performed for medical reasons. Since those particular abortions are an infinitesimally small minority of cases, any question of fetal rights does not extend to cover the majority of abortions.

I don’t think it ever does.

You complete idiot. I’m not arguing for the restrictions of abortion rights, I’m arguing that people who support choice would probably not support the method by which the Chinese allegedly perform it. I certainly don’t.

It terminates a potential life - but it is not murder.

Those rights have the potential to conflict in a case of a third-trimester abortion performed for non-medical reasons. Outside that very narrow framework, the rights do not conflict at all.

Don’t be ridiculous. But just because the option for adoption exists doesn’t mean the option for abortion shouldn’t.

I seriously doubt any woman would make the choice to have an abortion on whether or not she had the $75.00 available.

My standpoint is - it’s the woman’s choice, no question. While there may be a possible ethical consideration under exceedingly rare circumstances, it still ends up being the woman’s choice even under those conditions.

You total dork. There is nothing expedient about guaranteeing a medically and legally safe environment for women who wish to terminate a pregnancy. Death from back-alley abortions is a serious consideration and not merely an unpleasantness to be avoided. By calling them ‘expedient’ you’re trivializing two of the central reasons for legalizing abortion.
[/quote]

Oh my. Then name calling again. Dear me.

There’s nothing about the term expedience that denotes trivialization. In fact, quite the opposite. Nice try though, playing the indignation card.

You’re joking right? I don’t wish to insult you unnecessarily, but that has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I’ve ever read, and, I’ve read a lot of stupid arguments. It was also legal to fly jet planes without a license in the 1800s, and for the same reason.

I take it back. That’s about the dumbest argument I’ve ever read.

False too. Selling plastique kills no one. It’s how a person chooses to use it that may cost human lives.

No. You don’t understand. You are saying that the “demand” by itself is enough reason to do it. I give you examples of unreasonable demands, and you say, “No. Their not good demands.” Then you come back and say that the demand by itself is a good enough reason. Yet, you offer no sensible criteria as to why one is good, and the other isn’t. I’m not willing to take your word on it, especially considering your track record.

But, that’s not what you said. You said you were in favor of things that granted rights, and against things that took rights away. That’s what you said one post ago. Now it changes, and you’re against things that cost lives. Somehow you seem to be ignoring the argument that abortion is the killing of a human life.

You really have painted yourself into a corner here, and I’m strongly suspecting that you just post whatever comes into your head and really don’t have any kind of consistent reasoned rationale.

Well, actually the right to own explosives seems a more likely candidate for a basic human right, than the right to have an abortion. Owning explosives does not automatically end a human life, and explosives are useful in all kinds of nonviolent endeavors.

Well it’s your own argument I’m citing. I’m glad you see it’s stupid.

The women should, or should be forced to? Cause if you’re just thinking “should” I’d sure agree. There’s all kinds of things people should and shouldn’t do. They don’t always do them though. That’s why we have laws. That’s why freedoms and rights carry responsibilities.

You support a women’s right to do with her body as she will, don’t you? That’s what you said. What if she wants to do crack cocaine ten times a day while she’s pregnant? Should we have laws against this or does her right to do what she wants take precedent?

So what you’re saying is as that as long as it’s only a small number of horrible murders we don’t have to worry about it. Nice.

The insults again. And yet, you are clearly contradicting yourself. Earlier I asked you:

You replied:

That would mean that if a women chose to have such an abortion during delivery, that that is her right.

It’s what you said. If you say she has the right to choose “all the time,” then she can choose then, too, and you are supporting it. Either there are limits or there are not. You can’t have it both ways. Which is it?

No. The tissue is most definitely living. It is human. It is a seperate human life than the woman carrying it. What about killing that thing makes it not murder. What does murder mean if not the “taking of a human life?”

Again, and you seem to have a problem with things like this. But, it’s not me being ridiculous. It’s you. You brought up the idea that impoverishment from raising a baby was a valid reason for an abortion. I brought up the cosmically obvious rebuttal that there’s such a thing as adoption which would invalidate that argument. I wouldn’t ahve had to bother to mention it if you hadn’t made such a ridiculous argument in the first place.

I think we’ve pretty conclusively demonstrated that you don’t “think” particularly well, so your thought processes don’t constitute a credible rebuttal, at all.

Which I guess means that you do support a women’s right to choose an abortion at any point in her pregnancy, including during labor.

Aw, take your fucking straw men and cram 'em, Scylla.

Oh no, I lost my temper at you; that must mean I really don’t have a rational defense of abortion! I must just be saying stuff because I feel like it. Damn.

No, here’s stuff I’m saying because I feel like it.

You suck. You’re an arrogant prick, and your argument style consists solely of trying to discredit other people’s arguments through hyperbole. Your whole attitude consists of believing that since nobody who disagrees with you can have a rational defense of their viewpoint, then their viewpoint encompasses everything you see as irrational. Hence people who believe a woman has a right to an abortion also believe that women should be encouraged to smoke crack during pregnancy and that plastic explosives should be part of a kindergartener’s toybox.

Oh, here’s a nice quote from you:

Try practicing what you preach, turdwaffle.

Oh my. Then name calling again. Dear me.

**
[/QUOTE]

Olentzero resorts to name calling in an abortion debate. In further shocking news, the sun will rise in the east on Tuesday.

Olentzero:

Actually, I don’t. To paraphrase Lenny Bruce; show me somebody that does, and I’ll show you a nice person.

Maybe. Certainly sometimes. But, in much the way you blame the U.S. for creating Bin Laden, you must yourself accept the responsibility for having made me into an arrogant prick.

Arguing with you, it’s so easy. It doesn’t seem like you actually are capable of making a reasoned or cogent argument. All your buckets have holes in them, my friend. It’s very difficult to point out the myriad flaws in your arguments without looking very good in comparison.

But, I shall strive for humility.

Unfortunately that’s not true. Most of the time I argue reasonably in the abstract, or with the occasional example. With you however I find it necessary to make really big and easy to understand examples. Your arguments don’t hold water, and I use hyperbole to show you the flaws. They’re your flaws though. Either your argument makes sense and is reasonable, or it doesn’t and isn’t. So sorry it’s the latter.

Well that’s just stupid. Don’t get mad at me that your arguments get ripped apart when you post such idiotic and unsupportable arguments as that.

First of all, that’s not my whole attitude any more than a crumb is aloaf of bread. But, to restate it properly it should read:

“Your attitude in part consists of believing that people who disagree with you and have no rational defense for their viewpoint are behaving irrationally, and are perhaps themselves irrational.”

That’s better.

Yes. Yes. That’s what I’m in favor of. “Crack for pregnant women!” That’s my motto!

Let me put the question to you:

What classroom is complete without them?

O:

That seems to pretty much sum it up.

I feel somewhat as if I’m taking a stroll in the middle of a DMZ. However, in between the flares of heated tempers there have been some good points made, and I’d like to bring up a few more for examination. Gentlemen, please be kind – my flame retardant gear is on backorder. :wink:

To get back to the original OP, I simply object to it as I do any form of persuasion which is wholly emotional in nature and which relies on either graphic pictures or highly slanted language to make its point. The anti-choice campaign is not the only one who does this; it just happened to be behind the paid announcement referred to in the OP. It seems emotionally manipulative to me, and encourages decisions which are not based upon logic, but its converse. That’s a big fat IMHO; I don’t expect anyone else to either share or agree with it.

(I’d don the flame retardant gear at this point if I could, but I don’t have it, so here goes. :slight_smile: )

The thing that bothers me most about the whole pro-choice/anti-choice debate is the assumptions which inevitably get made on both sides. The second most troubling thing are the ways in which both sides act based upon these assumptions.

One assumption made by both camps is that there is no room for a pro-life person to be pro-choice, and that simply is not so. I know too many people who would themselves not get an abortion who simply do not believe it their place to enforce their beliefs on someone else. I respect them for that.

There are two assumptions which are habitually made by the anti-choice camp which deeply disturb me as someone who believes in choice. The first is that anyone who is pro-choice is, by default, recommending abortion for all situations; the second is that it must follow that anyone who believes that women should have recourse to safe, legal abortions must be doing so because they either place no value on human life or because they believe in encouraging feckless people not to take responsibility for their actions.

I do not recommend abortions be performed as a matter of course for any number of reasons. First and foremost, I believe that both the man and the woman should be responsible enough to use sufficient birth control to keep an unwanted pregnancy from occurring. Secondly, though, the fact is, abortions do pose a hazard for a woman’s future conception. Repeated abortions increase that hazard. Therefore, it is simply not a medically sound or logical avenue to advise. I have yet to talk to anyone who is pro-choice who advocates abortion as a first course of action, and as such, believe that such an assumption is not only unfounded, but does pro-choicers a grave disservice.

I do, however, see that there are a number of situations in which an abortion could and should be offered to a woman. I expounded on one such situation in detail in my previous post; there are others. The problem, however, with legislating abortion is that no matter how broad one tries to make the legislation, someone is going to slip through the cracks. It seems neither fair nor right to potentially deny a citizen of this country access to what could be life-saving treatment simply because the treatment in question happens to be an abortion. Moreover, I am against too many governmental controls over individual choices and individual freedoms. Therefore, a pro-choice stance seems to me to be the most fair to adopt, and thus, that is why I choose to do so.

There has been a great deal of discussion about part of the second assumption which troubles me, that of responsibility. And that, friends, is one I honestly find murky no matter how I look at it.

First, I know that not all women who choose to abort are aborting an unwanted or unplanned child, nor are they necessarily unmarried. It isn’t an instance of getting rid of a responsibility. I know several women who truly wished to have a child, but who, for health reasons, regretfully had to abort. I also see where if a wife became pregnant as a result of a rape, where such a child could destroy a marriage. In any event, it is a fallacy to assume that every single woman who chooses to have an abortion is a feckless person who simply got caught when she skipped taking precautions, and it is unfair to impose legislation based upon such an assumption.

Are there women who have abortions who are not covered by such circumstances? Of course there are. Are there women who think little of having an abortion? I’m sure there are…but I also think that said number are fewer than the anti-choice camp would have people believe.

However, it should be pointed out that there are also women who think nothing of giving birth and abandoning their child, or dumping it upon relatives who may or may not provide a good home for it and continuing on their merry way. The problem of Dumpster babies, in fact, became so prevalent in our area of Texas that the law regarding child abandonment was changed. At one time, a woman could face criminal charges if she left a baby at a hospital, however, in an attempt to reduce the number of children being abandoned in Dumpsters and other public areas, the law now provides that a woman may leave a child in the care of a hospital and not risk being charged. (If anyone wants more details or a cite, tell me, and I’ll get my better half to look up the specific part of that code for me and see if I can find it online.) It seems to me, then, that the underlying problem is not whether or not a woman can have an abortion – it’s whether or not the individual in question has been raised to accept the responsibility of her actions.

Adoption, while a good option, is not necessarily the best option, either. I hear over and over how much of a market there is for adoptive children…but the thing is, that market only exists for certain types of adoptive children. Children of color have a much more difficult time being placed in good homes, and ones who are not healthy or who have birth defects have an even more difficult time. So it’s not quite accurate to say that any child given up for adoption will go to a safe and loving home. There have also been some pretty unscrupulous practices involving agencies which supposedly facilitate adoptions (witness the cluster of a case where the agency sold a child to a both couple in the U.S. one in the U.K., and the whole thing ended up in an ugly legal battle.) That being said, adoption may be great in principle, but it, too, has its drawbacks.

And now we hit the murkiest issue of all, and the one I personally have the hardest time sorting through: responsibility.

I agree that a woman, like any adult, should face the responsibility of her actions. I believe there are lasting consequences no matter what choice she makes, whether or not those consequences are immediately apparent or not. However, while I constantly see people stressing that women should take responsibility for their actions…there is not a whisper as to what responsibility the man who got her pregnant should be required to take.
Child support is not enough; there are entirely too many men who are unable or unwilling to provide such support. Birth control is the responsibility of both parties, the woman did not get herself pregnant, and moreover, there is a possibility that a man can force a woman into unwanted and unprotected intercourse which could result in pregnancy. In all fairness, if we are going to deny women the right to abort, then we must also require an equally draconian measure to enforce responsibility on the other parent. Otherwise, this becomes a form of sexual discrimination.

I also have a great deal of difficulty puzzling through the responsibility issue because I know that our society is far from perfect. In a perfect society, all children would be given an adequate sexual and social education. There would be no misinformation out there to confuse them. They would have ready and easy access to birth control and disease preventive measures.

Unfortunately, this isn’t the case. Teens in particular make decisions based on poor and often erroneous information, and suffer for it. The Internet isn’t helping, either, sad to say – I had occasion to check teen chat rooms not long ago, when my husband and I were deciding what level of internet access we felt comfortable in giving to his eldest son, and the amount of misinformation being bandied about was simply appalling. (Needless to say, he doesn’t get to chat-hop.)

Moreover, young girls in particular are extremely susceptible to emotional pressure, and to be candid, there are a lot of boys out there who apply it in order to get the girl to have sex with them. How many high school seniors did we know who deliberately sought out freshman girls, or even eighth grade girls to date so they could score? How many guys in their early 20’s will pick up on 16 and 17 year olds for the same reason? I am not at all accusing every single man of doing this; far, far from it. But it is prevalent, it does happen, and uninformed children reap the penalty. We can force them to have the children…but then, does that really teach them anything? Does society benefit by giving a 12 or 13 year old the responsibility of motherhood that soon? And again, what of the other who is responsible for the pregnancy?

I wish we had a world where no child was conceived who was not wanted, and no child was born who was not cared for and anxiously awaited. I wish we had a world where rape was unheard of and medical science had the answer to every health concern. But that isn’t our world. In the absence of that perfect world, I advocate a choice because it gives people more flexibility to deal with the circumstances a far less than perfect world can throw at them.

Lionors, thy posts are as a balm unto my inflamed temper. Thank you.