# Shakespeare vs Bacon **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099 "2000-10-31T16:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kate)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/1 "2000-10-31T16:39:52Z")
Once and for all, are they Shakespeare’s plays or Sir Francis Bacon’s plays? I’ve read some of the evidence the Bacon-supporters tout, but I’d like to hear the general consensus. And as a footnote, what’s all this about Francis Bacon being the illegitimate child of Queen Elizabeth I? Is nothing sacred!? /Kate ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/2 "2000-10-31T16:47:37Z")
Since someone’s going to say it sooner or later, it may as well be me… Which would you rather have for breakfast? Shakespeare or Bacon? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/3 "2000-10-31T16:51:25Z")
Don’t worry yourself - it’s a moot point. Shakespeare wrote the plays, by definition. He may have been born a nobleman. he may have also published a number of plays under the name “Francis Bacon”. “Shakespeare” may not have been his real name. Who cares? Don’t say “Shakespeare wrote _Hamlet_”. Say: “The guy who wrote _Hamlet_ is Shakespeare”. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/4 "2000-10-31T16:54:24Z")
I don’t have any evidence to offer, but I always found the arguments of the Bacon supporters to be pretty elitist. “Of course, there’s no _way_ a rural bumpkin like Shakespeare could have written the plays!” Yeah, and there’s no way a bumpkin like Faulkner could have written his books, either. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/5 "2000-10-31T16:55:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*Don’t worry yourself - it’s a moot point. Shakespeare wrote the plays, by definition. He may have been born a nobleman. he may have also published a number of plays under the name “Francis Bacon”. “Shakespeare” may not have been his real name. Who cares? > > Don’t say “Shakespeare wrote _Hamlet_”. Say: “The guy who wrote _Hamlet_ is Shakespeare”. \*\* Well…the problem with this is that no one denies that William Shakespeare was an actual actor at the Globe theatre; it’s not an invented _nom de plume_ like George Orwell or Mark Twain. I’m wondering if the Earl of Oxford is now second-favorite to have written those plays, rather than Francis Bacon? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/6 "2000-10-31T17:53:19Z")
I have read a couple of books on the subject, and I am well convinced that the man from Stratford-on-Avon named William Shakespeare actually did write the plays attributed to him. For one thing, much of his vocabulary was known only from the area around Stratford before he wrote the plays. The argument that Bacon actually wrote the plays seems to rest mainly on a crackpot theory that Bacon secretly revealed his identity in the plays using some kind of cipher or code. This theory was conclusively debunked by the famous cryptologists William and Elizabeth Friedman. Their excelltent book on the subject is apparently out of print, but you might be able to find it at a good library. The title is _The Shakespearean ciphers examined: an analysis of cryptographic systems used as evidence that some author other than William Shakespeare wrote the plays commonly attributed to him_ Some people think it wasn’t Bacon but someone else, perhaps Marlowe or Edward de Vere, who wrote the plays. This is also bull, in my opinion. It wasn’t until centuries after his death that people began to speculate that Shakespere didn’t write the plays himself. [This page](http://search.eb.com.au/shakespeare/macro/5009/50.html) has a discussion of the other claimants, about 3/4 of the way down the page. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/7 "2000-10-31T18:43:21Z")
Most of the Baconians died off in the early twentieth century. The alternative authorship theory you most often hear nowadays involves Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford. Having argued with Oxfordians on this board before, I don’t feel like going through the whole thing again. I’ll just direct you to the excellent Shakespeare Authorship Page instead. [http://www.clark.net/pub/tross/ws/will.html](http://www.clark.net/pub/tross/ws/will.html) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/8 "2000-10-31T20:51:17Z")
Thanks for that link, FP. The problem with the Oxfordians is that they don’t have any evidence to back their claim – it’s all speculation, false assumptions, and out-and-out lies. Shakespeare’s name was on the plays, and there is plenty of historical evidence that William Shakespeare was working in the theater at the time the plays were written. For the name of a living person to be used by someone else as a pen name, this not being known during the lifetime of either men or their contemporaries, is historically unique\*, and the Oxfordians need to bring some solid proof (letters or eyewitness testimony) if they can claim the slightest validity of this extraordinary claim. But they only wave their hands and bring up irrelevancies. \*Don’t mention the McCarthy period. It didn’t take 400 years to discover Dalton Trumbo actually wrote “The Bridge on the River Kwai.” ---
**Author:** ![egkelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/db5fbb/32.png) [@egkelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/egkelly)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/9 "2000-10-31T21:03:38Z")
My comment: there seems to be a dearth of information about William Shakespeare. I remember reading that there are only a handful of authenticated signatures of his, and no authenticated portraits. hOW IS THIS SO? hE MUST HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY WEALTHY MAN in his day-why don’t we have bills of sale, contracts, bptismal records of his children, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/10 "2000-10-31T21:22:37Z")
[PONDERING]How many works not written by Shakespear, but another man of the same name will fit on the head of a pin…[/PONDERING] ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/11 "2000-10-31T21:28:14Z")
egkelly – We DO have baptismal records for WS’ children and extensive records of his business dealings. In fact, we have more documentary evidence about Shakespeare’s life than about any other playwright from this period, except Ben Jonson and possibly Christopher Marlowe. ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/12 "2000-10-31T21:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > The alternative authorship theory you most often hear nowadays involves Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford. For which there is in fact substantial supporting scholarship. At least as much supporting evidence as that for the man named Shakespeare himself. Not enough to make the case conclusively, but certainly enough to make a statement like this: > [@](#): > > The problem with the Oxfordians is that they don’t have any evidence to back their claim – it’s all speculation, false assumptions, and out-and-out lies. make me think we’re talking about politics or religion rather than Shakespeare! Needless to say, I’ve thrown in my hat with the Oxfordians. (I’m also voting for Nader, so by now my skin has become pretty thick. Feel free to pile on!) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/13 "2000-10-31T22:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by egkelly \* > \*\*My comment: there seems to be a dearth of information about William Shakespeare. I remember reading that there are only a handful of authenticated signatures of his, and no authenticated portraits. hOW IS THIS SO? hE MUST HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY WEALTHY MAN in his day-why don’t we have bills of sale, contracts, bptismal records of his children, etc.? \*\* There’s as much information still on record for Shakespeare and his family as for just about anyone else from that time, I believe. Remember that, for all his wealth, he was still a commoner, and his profession had low status, so you can’t expect as much documentation as there would be for a nobleman. If you’re in doubt about his really being wealthy, check out the local parish next time you’re in Stratford. A large part of the floor area is taken up the the Shakespeare family chapel and tombs. His father wasn’t merely a “glovemaker”, either, but a wealthy merchant and bigwig in what was a pretty fair-sized transportation hub city. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/14 "2000-10-31T22:33:00Z")
So, **ren** , let’s see some of that supporting scholarship. Evidence that the author was, in fact, the man called William Shakespeare: That’s the name that appears on the plays-- Occam’s razor The man who wrote the plays also appeared in many of them, under the name William Shakespeare When he so appeared, he was not recognized as the Earl by any of the audience members, which included nobles as well as commoners There was a man named William Shakespeare, who, despite having no other claim to fame, still has a remarkable amount of information preserved about himself. The only evidence I’ve ever seen presented that the author was de Vere is subtle refereces coded into the various writings. This is trumped by the unsubtle hints that it was, in fact, Shakespeare: See my first point above. Just to forestall one possible line of argument: I saw the article in _GAMES_ magazine, too. Much as I enjoy that magazine, it is not a scholarly publication. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/15 "2000-10-31T22:41:42Z")
Here’s a whole lot of contemporary documentation: [http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/shakspere/evidence1.html](http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/shakspere/evidence1.html) And a lifetime’s worth of other goodies to peruse: [http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/outline.html](http://fly.hiwaay.net/~paul/outline.html) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/16 "2000-10-31T22:58:52Z")
There are other theories besides the Bacon and Oxford ones. One is that several different people wrote the plays but Shakespeare took credit for some reason. One strong piece of evidence for this theory is that there are some 17,000 different words used in the plays. This is an incredible number. Your typical author doesn’t use even half that number. At any rate, I understand that the evidence that de Vere (I think) wrote _Love’s Labors Lost_ is rather strong. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/17 "2000-11-01T00:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > \*\*One strong piece of evidence for this theory is that there are some 17,000 different words used in the plays. This is an incredible number. Your typical author doesn’t use even half that number. > \*\* Whatever else you may say about him, Shakespeare was **not** a typical author. ---
**Author:** ![ATTGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@ATTGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATTGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/18 "2000-11-01T00:26:58Z")
I thought you were going to ask if Shakespeare was kosher. ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/19 "2000-11-01T00:51:21Z")
**Chronos** , The idea that I get all my information from Games magazine is funny, not to mention insulting. I do know the meaning of scholarship. I’m honestly surprised by how emotional the rhetoric over this gets. I didn’t realize people get so passionate about it. There have been several whole books carefully researched and written attempting to make a case for de Vere, and certainly a lot more points are raised than “subtle references” in “coded writings.” For easy reference, let me cite a few things I found on the net. I provide links at the bottom in case you want to skip this and read the sources yourself. All bolded text is my emphasis. First, on why there is even cause to suspect the man named Shakespere himself: > [@](#): > > In fact, the “records of (Shakespere’s) lifetime almost always spelled his name Shakespere” while the names on the plays were always spelled “Shakespeare, about half the time with a hyphen which generally denoted a made up name or pseudonym”. > [@](#): > > Will Shakespere of Stratford was not in his lifetime heroed as a great playwright, at least not in the documents available today. **Known documentation reveals him as “only a businessman and real estate investor with some minor connection to the theatre”.** > [@](#): > > Raised by illiterate parents **it seems odd that a commoner such as Shakespere would not only learn how to read and write, but also become an expert in law, court life, ancient languages, geography, music, painting, history, biblical scholarship and all the other subjects that it appears the author of Shakespeare must have known quite well**. There is, in fact, **no evidence that Shakespere was even literate. “Not a scrap of writing in his hand has survived” save six signatures which are all from the last four years of his life, written in “crabbed hand” that are questionably not even written by the same writer**. Before we proceed, let me make two points: 1. Just because someone with a last name spelled similar to “Shakespeare” did exist in the same time and place as the bard, does not preclude that the name was a pen name. The fact of such a person’s existence does not preclude the works having been written by someone else. My real name isn’t “ren”, are you gonna insist that I didn’t write this just 'cause other people with the name “ren” exist and have access to the SDMB? 2. If we are to consider any other source than the similarly-named “Shakespere”, we are obviously dealing with someone who wrote under a pen name. Evidence which deals with trying to ferret out who might use such a pen name does not amount merely to games with “coded writings” which can automatically be dismissed merely because the source is not obvious. That’s tantamount to saying that ANY pen name whose source we are unsure of must remain a mystery and just throwing up our hands and saying “well, no one admitted it, so we can’t know”. So, as for what evidence exists suggesting de Vere’s involvement at all: > [@](#): > > During his life, he was often associated with writers and theater companies, and was also known as a writer and poet. Quite strikingly, **although Oxford was “praised…for his poetry and his plays…his literary activities under his own name ceased about the time that the poems and plays of Shakespeare began to appear”**. Looking very specifically at similarities in writing style, **the six line pentameter stanzas that appear in Venus and Adonis, "described by Shakespeare as ‘the first heir of my invention,’ occur commonly in extant early poetry of Edward DeVere but almost no where else in the English verse of the 16th century"** Also, there are reams and reams of studies which also show profuse and compelling similarities between the events of de Vere’s life and the contents of Shakespeare’s plays (wayyy to many to quote here. See links below). No such evidence **at all** can be found for the man named “Shakespere”. As for the pen name choice itself: > [@](#): > > Why the Shake-speare penname? The most proclaimed reason is that writing poetry and plays was not a “proper” thing for a gentleman and aristocrat to do during the Elizabethean age. While not in any written code of conduct, **“in the Renaissance period in England no courtiers were allowed to publish poetry” (“A Beginners Guide to the Shakespeare Authorship Problem” 7). Edward DeVere would have had to use a penname** to publish any works of plays or poetry under the societal standards of the time. **Since his family coat of arms portrayed a lion shaking a spear, the Shakespeare name actually bears a logical relationship to Oxford as a choice in pennames** Here are some links for you: I took my quotes from here: [http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~cschwei/101\_web/bylander.html](http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~cschwei/101_web/bylander.html) This is the De Vere Society’s own argument: [http://www.devere.org.uk/](http://www.devere.org.uk/) Some more biographical info. [http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/devere.htm](http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/devere.htm) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099/20 "2000-11-01T03:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > > \*\*… there are some 17,000 different words used in the plays. This is an incredible number. Your typical author doesn’t use even half that number. > > \*\* > > Whatever else you may say about him, Shakespeare was **not** a typical author. True, but even authors noted for their erudition, e.g. William F. Buckley, don’t use that many different words. Counts for them are usually around ten to twelve thousand. I should note that the number 17,000 does not include inflected forms. Sometimes you will see a larger number (usually around 29 or 30 thousand) ascribed to the Bard, but this is counting inflected forms as separate words. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare-vs-bacon/39099.md?page=2)