# Shakespeare **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 14, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207 "2005-10-14T11:53:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/101 "2005-10-17T17:49:03Z")
Not much to the purpose of this discussion, I know, but a few days ago I had a yen to read Henry V’s Agincourt speech again. I swear I can’t read this gem without tearing up because it’s both gorgeous poetry and an inspiring (if warmongering) speech. Here it is just for the hell of it: WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here But one ten thousand of those men in England That do no work to-day! KING. What’s he that wishes so? My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin; If we are mark’d to die, we are enow To do our country loss; and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more. By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost; It yearns me not if men my garments wear; Such outward things dwell not in my desires. But if it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive. No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England. God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour As one man more methinks would share from me For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host, That he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy put into his purse; We would not die in that man’s company That fears his fellowship to die with us. This day is call’d the feast of Crispian. He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d, And rouse him at the name of Crispian. He that shall live this day, and see old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian.’ Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars, And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispian’s day.’ Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot, But he’ll remember, with advantages, What feats he did that day. Then shall our names, Familiar in his mouth as household words- Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester- Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red. This story shall the good man teach his son; And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered- We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition; And gentlemen in England now-a-bed Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/102 "2005-10-17T17:53:42Z")
> [@wissdok](#): > > Jonson’s influence over younger writers–or contemporary ones–extended into the realm of the theatre as well (logically!). Those playwrights who followed in his tradition, and who came to be known as the Sons of Ben, include Beaumont, Fletcher, Massinger, Shirley, Nathan Field, and Richard Brome. > From Virginia Tech > [http://athena.english.vt.edu/~jmooney/renmats/jonson.htm](http://athena.english.vt.edu/~jmooney/renmats/jonson.htm) Although Jonson had a considerable influence on the lyric poets that followed him, his only influence on theatre after him was in his support of neoclassicism, which, on balance, did more harm than good. The main reason for the “Sons of Ben” was that he had simply become the “grand old man”. > [@wissdok](#): > > Mr. Kennedy, I must have been mistaken, I thought earlier that you proclaimed that I was wrong about society’s fear of theatres and theatre companies. I also thought you said ”I had fallen under the spell of Puritan propaganda.” I would just like point out that NYC’s Time Square and Boardway of the 1970s, and Vegas’s Downtown of the 70s and 80s were popular areas that were greatly affected by rising crime rates…and business went down accordingly. It is fitting that when there was finally a “war on crime,” these areas were a priority. Back to Shakespeare’s time, do you really think (even with your argument of Puritan morality) that the general public flooded the Globe? Can we not logically assume that Shakespeare and his company of men had regular customers? Can we not also assume that there would be those for fear, morality, or just distain…avoided the theatre? Of course there were. Nevertheless, the contemporary anti-theatre writers all complain that it was too popular, and too crowded. > [@wissdok](#): > > To 42fish, it has gone up since 1995. I think David Wallechinsky’s People’s Almanac of 20th Century said 211 and 44. I sure the number has grown since. Most in the 20th Century were in the early silent era or of limited release. I apologize for that omission. As for what I way trying to explain, Doyle influenced Gardner’s _Perry Mason, Henry’s Maxwell Smart, Charlie Chan, Quincy, Colombo,_ and pretty much all detective dramas in our culture. Halloween is approaching and it impossible to measure Bram Stoker’s or Mary Shelley’s influence on culture. Tod Browning and James Whale had a good deal more to do with both. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/103 "2005-10-17T18:12:00Z")
**Wissdok** , you are much like a blind man arguing about colours. It’s a safe bet that you’ve never read Jonson, or Beaumont and Fletcher, or Dryden. I recommend that you go away and read The Poetaster by Jonson (very funny play satirising other playwrights, specifically John Marston), A King and No King by Beaumont and Fletcher (wonderful tragedy, it would make an excellent movie) and Dryden’s Marriage-a-la-Mode (another marvellous comedy). Then come back and argue the respective merits of these writers. As it stands, I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![wissdok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c4cdca/32.png) [@wissdok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wissdok)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/104 "2005-10-17T19:13:13Z")
Let me make this clear aldiboronti and Mr. Kennedy, I never spoke of the merit of Dryden, Jonson, Fletcher, and Beaumont. I just explained what has long be studied by scholars. The Restoration Period was when, as the scholars point out, when Jonson influence was at its greatest. No, I have not read their work but I can read what scholars more qualified than us, have written on the subject. If you don’t like what they say, argue with them not me. As for the main discussion… good writing, good literature, good art, are all subjective to whatever definition is used for good. Yes, I think _The Old Man And the Sea_ is a better book than _See Spot Run_, but my neighbor may not agree. Whom among us should judge? I think I am being very polite and diplomatic. And if my neighbor wish to proclaim, Modonna the greatest writer of all time, you will here me debate that too. No one person or group should be throwing around the term “the greatest” without the support of the populous. The fact some of you believe that you are more qualified than my neighbor or me, says a lot about both Capitalism and Democracy in this country. People have different taste and that is a good thing. The fact your taste are different than mine doesn’t mean yours are better. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/105 "2005-10-17T19:25:17Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > When I took a quarter of Shakespearian acting classes way back in 1990, my instructor described the “Classical British Style” of acting Shakespeare - it essentially boiled down to these steps 1. Make you entrance, walk directly to your mark and stand facing your audience 2. Clasp your hands together in front of your chest and remain standing still 3. Deliver your lines directly to the audience. Don’t look at the other actors. 4. All your acting should be in your voice and from the neck up. Don’t involve your body. 5. Diction is more important than acting. Don’t forget the huge trousers and _ **The Roar** _. (For you _Black Adder_ fans out there.) RR ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/106 "2005-10-17T19:25:49Z")
You and me both, **teela brown**. All this talk about it made me watch it again just last night! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/107 "2005-10-17T20:55:00Z")
While I don’t disagree on the value of watching Shakespeare, don’t underestimate the value of reading him. A few years back I undertook to read all the plays . In the middle of this project I started to read them more fluently (to the extent of dreaming in blank verse) and the experience was quite wonderful. I wonder if **wissdok** considers Broadway to be popular? Certainly the limitations of the venue mean few people see plays, but it is not elitist/ Doesn’t value over time count? I suspect in-a-Gadda-da-Vida sold more copies than Highway 61 Revisited when it came out, but not any more. And Mozart was certainly concerned about the popularity of his work (not that he hit the popularity target consistently) and was quite thrilled that he well liked in Prague, more so than Vienna. Remember he was one of the first composers who supported himself by writing as opposed to being kept by a noble. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/108 "2005-10-17T22:20:10Z")
When I was in school, “democracy” was the name of a system of government. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/109 "2005-10-17T22:35:03Z")
If no-one could learn Shakespeare but by the medium of actors, there would soon be a considerable actor shortage. But for most people, a decent theatrical company is the best way to open the door. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/110 "2005-10-18T01:46:37Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > Wissdok said: > And I think Donne said something similar. Can’t find the exact quotes right now. I had thought Donne had written a poem praising Shakespeare, but I can’t find it. Jonson praised Donne though. Looking at the book I used in my British Literature class last year, I do see some things: Ben Jonson wrote a poem called “To the Memory of My Beloved the Author, Mr. William Shakespeare and What He Hath Left Us” It’s kind of long, so I’ll link to it instead of reposting it: [http://www.bartleby.com/40/163.html](http://www.bartleby.com/40/163.html) John Milton wrote a poem called “On Shakespeare”: > [@](#): > > What needs my Shakespeare for his honored bones > To labor of an age in piled stones, > Or that his hallowed relics should be hid > Under a star-ypointing pyramid? > Dear son of memory, great heir of fame, > What need’st thou such weak witness of thy name? > Thou in our wonder and astonishment > Hast built thyself a livelong monument. > For, whilst, to the shame of slow-endeavouring art, > Thy easy numbers flow, and that each heart > Hath from the leaves of thy unvalued book > Those Delphic lines with deep impression took, > Then thou our fancy of itself bereaving, > Dost make us marble with too much conceiving, > And so sepúlchred in such pomp dost lie > That kings for such a tomb would wish to die. Dryden wrote an essay comparing Shakespeare and Ben Jonson. The link is [here](http://amb.nbu.bg/british/2/dryden/essay.htm). It’s the section called “Shakespeare and Ben Jonson Compared”, near the bottom. Sorry if someone posted this already, I don’t think anyone did though. These people all loved Shakespeare. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/111 "2005-10-18T03:40:10Z")
Just read Twain’s essay and it is highly entertaining (hilarious, in parts) but he does make errors of fact as well as errors of omission. I think there are six specimens of Shakespeare’s signature, not five. And there are things we know for certain about Shakespeare’s youth even if there’s no documentary evidence - for one thing we know he got Anne Hathaway pregnant. And we can surmise at least _some_ degree of courtship before that. The 26 year old Anne probably will have needed some amount of persuasion to “make the beast with two backs” with this callow 18 year old who she probably met while wandering around the Warwickshire countryside. The one sonnet that we know for sure that is written about Anne is dismissed by most scholars as “not as good” as the rest but I think it’s actually quite powerful: _Those lips that Love’s own hand did make Breathed forth the sound that said ‘I hate’ To me that languish’d for her sake; But when she saw my woeful state, Straight in her heart did mercy come, Chiding that tongue that ever sweet Was used in giving gentle doom, And taught it thus anew to greet: ‘I hate’ she alter’d with an end, That follow’d it as gentle day Doth follow night, who like a fiend From heaven to hell is flown away; ‘I hate’ from hate away she threw, And saved my life, saying ‘not you.’_ It conjures up images of when they first met - the young Will wandering around the countryside filled with hate and anger until he met Anne, who took all his hate away. Or at least taught him how to channel it. The last two lines contain two puns showing that the poem was written about Anne. “hate away” being a pun of “Hathaway” and “And saved my life” being a pun of “Ann saved my life”. All the other sonnets may be very high falutin’ and all but no one in those sonnets “saves his life”. It’s actually quite interesting to view the whole thing from the perspective of Anne. [This page](http://www.william-shakespeare.info/william-shakespeare-anne-hathaway.htm) does quite a good job of it. Anyway Twain, and just about everyone else I found when I went a-googlin’, when considering the bust in the Holy Trinity church in Stratford, goes on and on about whether it’s a true likeness of Shakespeare or not. No one seems to realise that that is completely and totally irrelevant. Who cares what he looked like? That doesn’t prove anything. Of much more interest is the inscription below the bust - carved within Anne’s lifetime either by the order of Susanna, his daughter, or by Anne herself. The inscription says: \*Iudicio Pylium, genio Socratem, arte Maronem. Terra tegit, populus maret, olympus habet. Stay, passenger, why goest thou by so fast, Read, if thou can’st, whom envious death hath plas’t Within this monument Shakspeare with whome Quick nature dide, whose name doth deck the tombe, Far more then cost, sith all that he hath writ Leaves living art, but page, to serve his witt.\* It’s not known who composed this (possibly Jonson since it bears a striking similarity to Jonson’s introduction to the first folio) but it is definitely known that Anne and her two daughters and her granddaughter read it, just the same as we read it now. Conclusive proof, I would think, that the guy buried nearby was a writer of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![wissdok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c4cdca/32.png) [@wissdok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wissdok)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/112 "2005-10-18T03:53:07Z")
Mr. Kennedy, Democracy is a philosophical term {Capitalism is another}. Democracy is the belief in the principles that the people, through equality, hold power. Government is also a philosophical term. Government means “ the body that hold authority to govern.” The Boy Scouts of America have a government if they have any body of authority. If they govern themselves they are a Democracy, if by a delegated body such as a national headquarters, they are a Representative Democracy. If this governing body doesn’t directly answer to the scouts by organizational design they may also be a Republic. Another term that might be helpful to you is politics, its philosophical meaning is “the struggle over {scarce} resources.” These resources can be material, an idea, or any other thing that there can be competition over. As a bonus I will throw in state, a political unit of people with a {common} governing body. In general use in the United States we also have to add the word nation when we describe foreign countries, as we are a federation of states. Thank you for coming to Political Science 101. As for my use in the earlier post, I meant it as I wrote it. The continual premise that the “enlightened” should be the only ones to decide what is quality and judged good… doesn’t go with the principles of Democracy (the people hold authority equally) and Capitalism (the principle that the people own resources privately). I also note that I again am being dragged back to discuss Jonson, Dryden, and the other writers of the Restoration Period. Please let me simplify this one and for all. The Restoration Period was a time of conservatism. It starts in 1660, Shakespeare died in 1616. Charles II was now in power, and while the period did show great lack, most writing of that period was influenced. Jonson who was a favorite of the crown before reformers took power. Charles, himself, I believe wasn’t a big fan of Shakespeare. Yes, the writers of his day spoke fondly of the Bard but they also spoke fondly of each other. Jonson {as I said before} is considered an abrasive sort as he would often “pat Shakespeare with one hand and slap him with the other.” But to his credit he said all he was going to say about Shakespeare before the Restoration Period anyway, as he died in 1637. As for Dryden, if you read more you will find that he was also a Shakespeare critic. Anyway, the age is considered to end with the death of Dryden in 1700. Here is a a couple of short quotes about the age of Restoration Period. From the Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedia 1973, Vol. 9 pg 78. The quality of the later age is suggested by its admiration for Ben Jonson and his disciples; the transparent and apparently effortless poetic medium of the “school of Ben”, along with its emphasis upon good taste, moderation, and the Greek and Latin classics as a models, appealed profoundly to the new generation. From Isaac Asimov’s Book of Facts 1992, pg 208. It wasn’t until the Restoration, which began nearly half a century after Shakespeare’s death, that anyone began to write about the bard. Biographically, it was too late; Shakespeare’s colleagues and acquaintances were dead, and the conditions under which he had worked were completely different. In addition, the world’s most distinguished playwright left no words about himself. As the 1700s open up, literature enters an age of reason, logic and balance. This kicks on for a few years and then its starts a build up to Romantic Age of the latter part of the century. It is during this “building up” in the early part of the 1700s that more and more people take a keen interest in Shakespeare enough to separate him from is contemporaries. Sadly he has been dead for a hundreds years by then and there is little left to find. Its because of all the unanswered mysteries of Shakespeare that we have Baconians, Oxfordians, and Marloweians. And now you know the rest of the story…… Wissdok Bachelor of Arts, Political Science Master in Public Adminstration ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/113 "2005-10-18T13:47:20Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > …for one thing we know he got Anne Hathaway pregnant. Strictly speaking, we don’t _absolutely_ know that, but it seems pretty darned likely. > [@Jojo](#): > > The one sonnet that we know for sure that is written about Anne is dismissed by most scholars as “not as good” as the rest but I think it’s actually quite powerful: Well, for one thing, it’s in iambic tetrameter rather than pentameter, so it isn’t altogether a proper sonnet at all. It’s probably something he wrote when he was about 18. It should be noted that some people in England bearing the name “Hathaway” pronounce it “Hate-away” to this day, though it is no longer the usual pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/114 "2005-10-18T14:13:47Z")
> [@wissdok](#): > > Mr. Kennedy, > Democracy is a philosophical term. No it isn’t, except in a sense of “philosophy” so broad as to be useless. > [@wissdok](#): > > Democracy is the belief in the principles that the people, through equality, hold power. No, that would be “belief in the principle of democracy,” which is two abstractions removed from democracy itself. > [@wissdok](#): > > Government is also a philosophical term. Again, no it isn’t. > [@wissdok](#): > > Another term that might be helpful to you is politics, its philosophical meaning is “the struggle over {scarce} resources.” No, that is not what the word means. > [@wissdok](#): > > Thank you for coming to Political Science 101. Granny. Eggs. Don’t. > [@wissdok](#): > > As for my use in the earlier post, I meant it as I wrote it. The continual premise that the “enlightened” should be the only ones to decide what is quality and judged good… doesn’t go with the principles of Democracy (the people hold authority equally) Translated, “democracy” is a “nice” word, and so you wish to arrogate its use to yourself. It won’t work here, chummy. Ham-handed propaganda is the tool of ignorance, and ignorance is the enemy in Cecil’s little club. > [@wissdok](#): > > and Capitalism (the principle that the people own resources privately). No, that is not what “capitalism” means. > [@wissdok](#): > > I also note that I again am being dragged back to discuss Jonson, Dryden, and the other writers of the Restoration Period. Jonson is not numbered among “writer of the Restoration Period.” > [@wissdok](#): > > Please let me simplify this one and for all. No, let _me_. You cannot use the Restoration and Augustan periods as an argument that Shakespeare was not appreciated in his own day, because they came later. You also cannot use them as an argument that Shakespeare was not appreciated during those very periods, because it is a demonstrable fact that, at the height of the period of “correcting” Shakespeare, it was still something they found necessary to do. Like Voltaire, they were fascinated by him even as they decried him. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/115 "2005-10-18T15:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **wissdok** > > Culture influence you say. Sherlock Holmes has appeared in 213 movies by the end of the 20th Century; and number two was Dracula(163) and three was Frankenstein’s monster(121). How many movies are on Shakespeare again? > [@42fish](#): > > 307 ‘straight’ versions, plus 41 ‘modern’ versions and “inummerable parodies,” as of 1995, according to Patrick Robertson, author of the _Guinness Book of the Movies_. The imdb lists [“William Shakespeare”](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000636/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8ZmI9dXxwbj0wfHE9V2lsbGlhbSBTaGFrZXNwZWFyZXxodG1sPTF8bm09MQ__;fc=1;ft=18;fm=1) as the writer on **621** productions since **1899** - an average of about 8 titles a YEAR. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/116 "2005-10-18T18:46:36Z")
Would someone simply point out every time that **wissdok** fails to respond to the point that the “enlightened” aren’t the ones who decide that Shakespeare is popular: the continued production of his works by the unenlightened, including numerous high school drama clubs, amature theater organizations, Hollywood, etc., and the success of those productions makes it clear that Shakespeare is appreciated by the masses even today. Once we establish this, the rest of his argument fails for lack of any support. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/117 "2005-10-18T20:50:41Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Would someone simply point out every time that **wissdok** fails to respond to the point that the “enlightened” aren’t the ones who decide that Shakespeare is popular: the continued production of his works by the unenlightened, including numerous high school drama clubs, amature theater organizations, Hollywood, etc., and the success of those productions makes it clear that Shakespeare is appreciated by the masses even today. Once we establish this, the rest of his argument fails for lack of any support. :rolleyes: Can someone simply explain to me why everyone is jumping all over **wissdok** when the problem is simply that the guy doesn’t find Shakespeare to be accessible? All of the arguments against wissdok have been designed to attack his _arguments_, not the _underlying cause_. Instead of trying to get him to say he’s wrong, how about trying to present Shakespeare in a way \*\*wissdok \*\* can appreciate? I guarentee that if you sell him on Shakespeare and can make him love Shakespeare as much as the rest of us, he’ll let go of the arguments you find vexing. What makes this approach particularly appealing is that **wissdok** is far from alone in his opinions. He’s just the only one reading this thread who’s willing to stand up and say so. I, for one, would like to see an approach to change his thinking. Instead, what we have is rapidly devolving into a flamefest. I’ll save you a bunch of time and tell you how this thread ends if this keeps up: - **wissdok** doesn’t back down, insisting that people who like Shakespeare are elitists (and probably sophists as well) - Those in opposition to **wissdok** will continue to say he’s wrong, and start posting responses that include subtle (or not so subtle) questions about his judgement, intelligence, or capacity for reading… - …Thereby proving **wissdok** ’s point entirely. K, now that we’ve gotten that out of the way… **wissdok** here are some Shakespeare quotes that have entered the lexicon. I see a lot of basic wisdom in these statements, and some of them are just fun to say (Like “Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war!” I love yelling that before a football game.) Others have become so ingrained in the language it’s almost shocking to realize they all came from one source: “This above all: to thine own self be true”. “Though this be madness, yet there is method in 't.” (Generally stated as “There’s a method to his madness.”) “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”. “If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?” “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose”. (Funny how often the religious right quotes this as a bible phrase.) “Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt” “He will give the devil his due” “He hath eaten me out of house and home”. “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers” “Having nothing, nothing can he lose” (Paraphrased by Bob Dylan.) “Cry “Havoc,” and let slip the dogs of war” “Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear; Seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come”. “Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.” “I will wear my heart upon my sleeve for daws to peck at”. “My salad days, when I was green in judgment.” (God, I love that one.) “Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/118 "2005-10-18T21:07:29Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Can someone simply explain to me why everyone is jumping all over **wissdok** when the problem is simply that the guy doesn’t find Shakespeare to be accessible? Except for the fact that that is precisely what he DIDN’T do. > [@wissdok (Post #39)](#): > > I truly believe that the only reason we still talk about Shakespeare is because elitist educators force him down innocent students throats. The premise by **wissdok** is not that he doesn’t like Shakespeare. The premise from **wissdok** is that the works of Shakespeare would long since have been forgotten if it weren’t for some sort of cultural elite who consistently force them upon others, assuring us of their value and insisting that we share that opinion. Presumably, based upon his statements, **wissdok** disagrees as to their value. Disagree with their value he can, and no one can dispute his feeling in that regard. But asserting that Shakespeare is receiving present-day plaudits solely because of some elite he cannot do, unless he enjoys being told he is wrong, demonstrably so. Which is the point I have been addressing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/119 "2005-10-18T21:51:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > But asserting that Shakespeare is receiving present-day plaudits solely because of some elite he cannot do, unless he enjoys being told he is wrong, demonstrably so. Which is the point I have been addressing. 🙂 And getting nowhere. At the very least, you have done nothing to change his mind, and a fair amount to prove his point. Suggestion: Try changing his mind. Start by dropping the adversarial position. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207/120 "2005-10-19T02:46:53Z")
To help further **Leviosaurus** ’s point. From [this website](http://www.william-shakespeare.info/william-shakespeare-quotes.htm), just the first of many a similar site found on google. > [@](#): > > The words of the Bard can be found everywhere! Shakespearean quotations can be heard on the radio and television on a daily basis. The advertising media love to make use of the Bard’s sayings. Famous authors have even used Shakespearean quotations as titles for their books such Aldous Huxley and ‘Brave New World’. And speaking of famous authors did you know that “What the dickens” was one of the qoutes used by Shake-speare, long before Charles Dickens was born? Other famous Shakespearean quotations such as “I 'll not budge an inch”, “We have seen better days” ,“A dish fit for the gods” are all used frequently and, almost as a parody, the expression it’s “Greek to me” is often used to describe a frustrated student’s view of Shakespeare’s work! Politicians dig deep into their pool of William Shake-speare qoutes and quotations such as “Fair Play”, "Foregone Conclusion ", “One Fell Swoop”, and "Into Thin Air ". Furthermore, other Shakespearean quotes such as “to thine own self be true” have become widely spoken pearls of wisdom. So qoutes from Will Shake-speare have now become household words - and just to emphasise the point “household word” is also one of the Bard’s ‘anonymous’ quotations! This alone isn’t what makes Shakespeare great, and doesn’t even adress **wissdok** ’s most distressing point (that being that popularity=quality), but I do agree that we won’t get anywhere by taking the approach we have been. Maybe overwhelming him with instances of Shakespeare in popular culture will do the trick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shakespeare/326207.md?page=7)