# "Shall Issue" gun carry has not led to a gun holocaust. What does this teach us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251 "2012-01-31T01:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/21 "2012-01-31T19:03:36Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > To reiterate, Shall Issue is the principle that anyone applying for a gun carry permit must be granted one if they meet objective requirements- they cannot be denied a permit at the local authorities’ discretion. Opponents of these laws claimed that it would open a floodgate of armed citizens leading to skyrocketing firearms deaths. Who exactly made this claim, when, and where? > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > While the murder rate is higher here, the overall rate of crime and violent crime in the US is lower than in those other places. [This report](http://www.defendingjustice.org/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%20Sheet%20-%20US%20vs%20World.pdf)says there are “similar rates” of crime in the USA and other industrialized nations. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/22 "2012-01-31T20:04:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Who exactly made this claim, when, and where? The Brady Campaign _ **still** _ opposes Shall Issue, and says so on their website. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/23 "2012-01-31T20:15:59Z")
And while I’m working on cites, one in support of my previous post about non-gun homicides in the US: [AMERICAN HOMICIDE EXCEPTIONALISM](http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/polsbyandkates1.htm) > [@](#): > > The United States records more non- firearms murders than there are murders from all causes in Western Europe and Japan combined, territories more than half again as populous as the United States. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/24 "2012-01-31T21:58:30Z")
Isn’t anybody going to point out that Wyatt Earp got the city council to ban guns in Dodge City? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/25 "2012-01-31T22:05:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh please. Gun violence has been on the decline for quite a while, and most of the gun homicides are gang related. Which doesn’t make it irrelevant, but certainly gang members being shot in turf wars is less damaging to society than people at random being murdered. As a random law-abiding citizen in the US, the odds of you dying to gun violence are miniscule. I would have to say for something to qualify as a holocaust, it would have to be a significant risk for people in their everyday lives, and it certainly isn’t. By that definition, even the Holocaust wasn’t a holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/26 "2012-01-31T22:14:30Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I read a peer reviewed paper (someone cited it here on the dope) that showed that the overwhelming majority (\>90%) of gun violence was committed with illegal guns. Thus, concealed carry laws and legally owned guns have little to do with the problem. > > FTR, not a gun owner, moderately liberal, and really don’t have a dog in this fight. And who do you think originally owned the vast majority of those guns? In the UK very few criminals have guns because it’s just not an option for most people. You don’t know anyone with a gun, most people barely ever even see guns. Guns aren’t part of our culture so it’s really crossing a line for a criminal to use one. There is also, of course, much less motivation to carry a gun when the punishment is so harsh for just having one (so a criminal with a gun cannot so easily blend in) and more importantly because 99% of the time no one is going to start shooting at you. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Well, you better start considering your other theories. The thing that the people who think the comparative murder rate proves something don’t get is the whole concept of a “control group.” So your theory is that Americans are simply more murderous? Maybe you’re right (your post makes sense to me), but I still see no reason for them to make it so much easier for themselves. Also, you say that rates of other crimes are lower in the US, and I’m too lazy right now to check a lot of stats, but I did notice the US has the most prisoners in the world, both per capita and in raw numbers, although that may be largely down to other factors. As for the control group, just where do you find one when comparing crime statistics? > [@Lumpy](#): > > Still hunting for cites which I’ll followup with, but apparently Americans knife, bludgeon, beat and choke each other to death at multiples of the European rates. Guns are just a convenience. And there’s currently a thread about the difference between American and European incarceration and rehabilitation practices [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14724243](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14724243) where another point is brought up: Makes sense, but apparently guns account for almost 40% of homicides in the US. I’d be surprised if a significant portion of those wouldn’t have been prevented had the killer not had access to a gun. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/27 "2012-01-31T23:07:58Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The argument is about how increased permission for concealed carry has not resulted in anything resembling the claims of the Violence Policy Center or the Brady Campaign. Given the crime is dropping in the face of the massive increase in CCW permits issued I would say that “shall issue” legislation has been, at worst, neutral. It certainly hasn’t been detrimental. However, given that correlation does not equal causation, you cannot say that increased CCW issuance has reduced crime. One is demonstrable, the other is not. I have to agree with **Airman Doors** on this aspect. We have no easy way of isolating the various contributing factors but at the very least I don’t think anything I’ve seen points yet to a serious spike in casual gunplay since the expansion of CCW, shall-issue licensing (where licensing applies) or even stand-your-ground laws. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I think both that gun ownership is a human right Eh, I’d say\* self-defense\* is what’s a “human” right: _in the case of the USA,_ in turn, use of the specific modality of gun ownership to exercise it is recognized and protected as a _civil_ right within this polity _due to its circumstances_. A different society with different circumstances may judge that it does not require easy access to that level of force. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/28 "2012-01-31T23:11:57Z")
Guns don’t kill people, it’s mostly the bullets! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/29 "2012-01-31T23:23:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, I’m comfortable with that terminology. Don’t take this the wrong way, but this probably means our positions are so far apart that there will be no meeting of the minds. I’m not dismissing what you say, just saying why I’m not sure I can debate anything at this juncture. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/30 "2012-01-31T23:29:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Don’t take this the wrong way, but this probably means our positions are so far apart that there will be no meeting of the minds. I’m not dismissing what you say, just saying why I’m not sure I can debate anything at this juncture. FTR, I’ve made two arguments in this thread directly relating to gun control. One was rather weakly in favor of more gun control, one was, I think, fairly strong against gun control. And I made a comment on the level of gun violence in this country - which is extreme, by any measure - without commenting on what solutions (if any) would be most effective in dealing with it. Interestingly enough, based on this, you have jumped to the conclusion that I’m sufficiently extremist on gun control that there’s no point in even talking to me. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/31 "2012-02-01T00:04:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Interestingly enough, based on this, you have jumped to the conclusion that I’m sufficiently extremist on gun control that there’s no point in even talking to me. Nope. I think IME your position has always been fairly balanced and middle-ground on gun control in general, and I didn’t see anything in here to change that opinion. I just can’t imagine categorizing the level of firearms-related violence as a “holocaust” by any definition of the word. Did I make another incorrect assumption? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/32 "2012-02-01T00:26:13Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Isn’t anybody going to point out that Wyatt Earp got the city council to ban guns in Dodge City? IIRC, they only banned Open Carry. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/33 "2012-02-01T00:40:31Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Nope. > > I think IME your position has always been fairly balanced and middle-ground on gun control in general, and I didn’t see anything in here to change that opinion. > > I just can’t imagine categorizing the level of firearms-related violence as a “holocaust” by any definition of the word. > > Did I make another incorrect assumption? Looks like I was the one misreading you, then. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/34 "2012-02-01T02:24:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Looks like I was the one misreading you, then. My apologies. No need. I probably typed too tersely before. All I was saying was it just seemed like your assessment of the current level of gun violence was so far different from my perception that there must be something I’m really not seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/35 "2012-02-01T03:04:11Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The UK, currently, with very restrictive gun laws, has fewer murders than the USA. But before the UK passed those laws in the early 1990s, it had equally fewer murders. Same with Australia, same with every other place. So, obviously, the gun laws are not the controlling factor. The UK’s very restrictive gun laws were not passed in the early 1990s. Shotguns and rifles have been tightly regulated since the Firearms Act of 1988, and handguns since the Firearms Act of 1997. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/36 "2012-02-01T03:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > To reiterate, Shall Issue is the principle that anyone applying for a gun carry permit must be granted one if they meet objective requirements- they cannot be denied a permit at the local authorities’ discretion. Opponents of these laws claimed that it would open a floodgate of armed citizens leading to skyrocketing firearms deaths. Obviously that didn’t happen, so I’d say what it SHOULD teach us is that having ordinary citizens carry guns is less risky than was previously assumed, and the actual ‘problem’ of firearms deaths in the US has other causes. That does not seem to be the lesson learned universally, however. > [@](#): > > Enough states have had Shall Issue permit laws for long enough now that it appears that the “Dodge City” scenerios are not going to come to pass. My question: What lessons are to be learned from this? The pro-firearms crowd would of course say that it proves that the advocates of gun control were and are flatly wrong. What say you who are pro-gun control? I’ll just say that I’m militantly unsurprised that carry conceal type laws opening up haven’t lead to gunfights in the streets by ordinary citizens. By and large ordinary citizens, even those who carry firearms (openly or concealed) don’t go about shooting each other in gunfights, as anyone who has ever been to a firing range would know…if they ever went to said firing range, where everyone is armed. I’ve in fact never seen an altercation with weapons fired or even threatened at the range I go to, and I’ve been going there for years. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/37 "2012-02-01T04:03:59Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > No need. I probably typed too tersely before. All I was saying was it just seemed like your assessment of the current level of gun violence was so far different from my perception that there must be something I’m really not seeing. The title of this thread uses the word “holocaust”, so Miller may well just have used that term because it was bouncing around in his subconscious. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/38 "2012-02-01T10:22:33Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > What say you who are pro-gun control? Restricting gun ownership to responsible law abiding adults, requiring them to get a permit for their weapon, works. The real question is how long will it take for these legally owned weapons to find their way into the hands of criminals? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/39 "2012-02-01T11:41:03Z")
Or for those “responsible, law abiding” adults to stop being so, if they ever were? To have a fit of anger that results in somebody getting killed who would have survived if the only weapon raedily available were a knife or a club (see the domestic violence statistics)? Or to finally act out a fantasy or a psychosis that they’d kept successfully hidden from whatever cursory investigation was done (Loughner, for example)? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251/40 "2012-02-01T13:02:00Z")
A change from may issue to shall issue is a different thing than a change from no concealed carry to allowed concealed carry. Which are we debating here? I’d say the former shouldn’t make much difference at all, while the latter is more debatable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shall-issue-gun-carry-has-not-led-to-a-gun-holocaust-what-does-this-teach-us/611251.md?page=3)