# Shame on France and Germany **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557 "2003-04-09T15:13:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/1 "2003-04-09T15:13:10Z")
Upon seeing the statue of Saddam come down in the heart of Baghdad, and seeing the jubilant population, I wonder what the French and Germans think. The French needed help to be liberated from a tyrannical, oppressiveregime just 60 years ago. I do not think that they OWE it to the USA to be blindly loyal as payment, but I think they OWE it to oppressed people to actively or at least passively support their liberation. Either they were afraid of expending political capital, did not have the intestinal fortitude, feared their own muslim population, or were simply not informed as to the level of oppression and terror under which the Iraqis lived. Germany was liberated from the destructive rule of Hitler 60 years ago as well. Do they not remember the freedom and success they experieced after they were liberated. Are they ignorant of improvements in German quality of life and security brought about by the Marshal Plan? Again, not that they owe the USA anything, but they should have been more eager to assist a people in need. God bless the courage of the American leadership. God bless the goodness and honor and professionalism of the American soldier. God bless the good people of Iraq who will now be free. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/2 "2003-04-09T15:24:58Z")
Another non debate. How many of these are we getting a day now ? And why - is it Spring Break over there yet ? **newcrasher** - Have you some kind of financial incentive attached to all these threads you start ? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/3 "2003-04-09T15:25:56Z")
And god bless gobshites everywhere for buying the crap that politicians threw at them. Yes the Iraqi people are happy now and hopefully will remain so. That doesn’t change the facts that lies made this war happen and lies will continue to be told. The French were adamant that 1441 would not be a automatic trigger to war. The US told him it wouldn’t be. Guess what they lied. The French said the would veto any other res. that was a automatic trigger to war. They seem to be the ones playing fair in this one. The war was about WOMD, then it became something else. What will it be next week? Back to WOMD or still a liberation. The US has signed up to the UN charter. This says that regime change is illegal no-matter what the regime is like. This war was about regime change and nothing else. Everything else was smoke and mirrors IMO. Hopefully the Iraqi people will come out of this on the plus side but their happiness is only a bi-product of US/UK arrogance and self interest. Something good has come out of a illegal and bullshit war. Good but forgive me if I’m not blowing the US about it. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/4 "2003-04-09T15:26:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Another non debate. How many of these are we getting a day now ? And why - is it Spring Break over there yet ? > > **newcrasher** - Have you some kind of financial incentive attached to all these threads you start ? \*\* Yes. Brilliant. You found me out. ---
**Author:** ![Alcibiades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cab0a1/32.png) [@Alcibiades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alcibiades)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/5 "2003-04-09T15:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by newcrasher \* > **Upon seeing the statue of Saddam come down in the heart of Baghdad, and seeing the jubilant population, I wonder what the French and Germans think.** “Population”? There were a few hundred people there. The CNN anchors have just reported fierce fighting still going on near a university. A female reporter from the Times of London gave an account of a fearful Iraqi woman in an elevator who heard Americans were killing people. People aren’t jubilant just yet. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The French needed help to be liberated from a tyrannical, oppressiveregime just 60 years ago. I do not think that they OWE it to the USA to be blindly loyal as payment, but I think they OWE it to oppressed people to actively or at least passively support their liberation. Either they were afraid of expending political capital, did not have the intestinal fortitude, feared their own muslim population, or were simply not informed as to the level of oppression and terror under which the Iraqis lived. > \*\* Or they believed innocent civilians should not suffer a war. You are referring to the French government. The French people certainly know what the story is. French TV - and for that matter, the local press here in Hong Kong - have shown graphic photographs of casualties. My sister, who is in Australia, cried when she saw a child die in this war. I guess we all see what we want to on TV. With a very heavy heart, and intense suspicion of the motivations behind it, I support this war, but I fully appreciate and respect the fundamental opposition to it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Germany was liberated from the destructive rule of Hitler 60 years ago as well. Do they not remember the freedom and success they experieced after they were liberated. Are they ignorant of improvements in German quality of life and security brought about by the Marshal Plan? > \*\* Oh, the Marshall Plan. A nice way of preventing the US economy from imploding after the war, by selling the economic output to Europe. From [here](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan): > [@](#): > > Critics of the Marshall Plan’s claim to a decisive role in Europe’s recovery point out that growth in many European countries revived before the large-scale arrival of U.S. aid, and was fastest among some of the lesser recipients. While Marshall aid eased immediate difficulties and contributed to the recovery of some key sectors, growth from the post-war nadir was largely an independent process. European socialists argue that a similar amount of reconstruction money could have been obtained by nationalizing the holdings of wealthy Europeans who deposited their money in US banks during World War II. We’ll see if there is a Marshall Plan for Iraq. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Again, not that they owe the USA anything, but they should have been more eager to assist a people in need. > > God bless the courage of the American leadership. God bless the goodness and honor and professionalism of the American soldier. God bless the good people of Iraq who will now be free. \*\* I doubt the courage of the American leadership, but amen to the balance. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/6 "2003-04-09T16:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **"Again, not that they owe the USA anything, but they should have been more eager to assist a people in need."** Actually German Troops are in Kuwait looking for telltale signs of chemical weapons being used on Kuwait. And then there are German Awacs crews in Turkey. So they do assist people in need. Germany just didn’t rush to war when Bush and Rumsfeld wanted it, but can you really blame the German government or - even more importantly - the population? It’s great to see that for once people demand proof, before starting wars, it’s great to see that Germany doesn’t rush to war anymore, post WWII. This goes to show that at least the Europeans learned from all the past mistakes. As for the French, they said that they would assist the USA if weapons of mass destruction were used. Furthermore they would have supported a war, if Bush had gone through the usual procedure of presenting evidence and then convincing the UN to intervene. Bush didn’t do these things and he still needs to explain to the world why this war was necessary. The potential good it did aside, what was the true reason for the war? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/7 "2003-04-09T16:32:58Z")
I refuse to believe that the OP is not intelligent enough to have considered other potential reasons that France and Germany might have had for resisting waging war on Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/8 "2003-04-09T17:04:03Z")
Believe it, **Hentor**. He’s named _newcrasher_ for a reason, after all . . . ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/9 "2003-04-09T17:14:06Z")
Forgive me, my history appears to be a little rusty. I know you had Pearl Harbour, but did you have a foreign power occupying the USA in WWII? Did you have a blitz where the citizens of Washington DC learned to fear the air-raid sirens because they knew that they would inevitably lead to bombs which might kill them? I don’t believe that WWII was on your doorsteps and marching down your streets, was it? Do you suppose the horrific memories of many who are still alive who fought during WWII might have had something to do with the European opposition to a War of Testosterone? We all knew Bush’s balls were bigger. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/10 "2003-04-09T17:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > European socialists argue that a similar amount of reconstruction money could have been obtained by nationalizing the holdings of wealthy Europeans who deposited their money in US banks during World War II. The Cuban Model. Works great, if the intention is to have all the financial and human capital move to South Florida. > [@](#): > > but did you have a foreign power occupying the USA in WWII? Trick question. To commonwealths, territories, or overseas military bases count? The status of the Aleutian Islands in 1941 never seemed so important. No, that’s still not like Europe. As for the rest of **McDuff’s** post, My dad did four years in a Japanese prison camp. 80% of his squadron was killed during the war. My grandfather got his shoulder blown off in the Great War (to end all wars). My mother’s relatives got steamrolled by the blitzkrieg and the Communists. Don’t lecture US citizens on the horrors of the great wars. Just because we’re smart enough to fight wars before we have the home field advantage… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/11 "2003-04-09T18:12:13Z")
Hey, you should know that in a study published last week, teams that play on the home field during the playoffs actually lose more often! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/12 "2003-04-09T18:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > Another non debate. How many of these are we getting a day now ? And why - is it Spring Break over there yet ? Apparently it’s Jingoistic Symbolism Day today, and some of the pro-war folks are giddy from overdoing the festivities. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/13 "2003-04-09T18:40:31Z")
I _so_ wish this was in the Pit… **newscrasher** - ever notice that US soliders (bless them! honour them! God bless! God bless!!!) weren’t the only soldiers out there? But let’s bless them anyway! Bless Bush! God bless Bush! Bless Cheney! Bless the soldiers! Bless the US troops! Those poor craven French folk! Let’s liberate them too from their muslim population! Let’s fortify their intestines! Let’s help them see the world through the eyes of Grand Old Uncle Sam!!! :rolleyes: Bless **newscrasher** for managing to be something that I am not allowed to type in this forum but am absolutely dying to. ---
**Author:** ![Fox\_in\_the\_Snow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@Fox\_in\_the\_Snow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fox_in_the_Snow)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/14 "2003-04-09T19:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I _so_ wish this was in the Pit… My thoughts exactly… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/15 "2003-04-09T20:00:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by McDuff \* > \*\*Forgive me, my history appears to be a little rusty. I know you had Pearl Harbour, but did you have a foreign power occupying the USA in WWII? \*\* Other then a few minor islands off the coast of Alaska, not really. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Do you suppose the horrific memories of many who are still alive who fought during WWII might have had something to do with the European opposition to a War of Testosterone? We all knew Bush’s balls were bigger. \*\* What? Like all the Americans who fought in WWII, Korea, and Viet-Nam aren’t around these days? :rolleyes: Marc ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/16 "2003-04-09T20:06:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **I _so_ wish this was in the Pit…** The real question is, why is it _not_ in the Pit? I fail to see any sign of intelligent debate in the OP… ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/17 "2003-04-09T20:14:46Z")
I thought I made it quite clear what I was saying. War elsewhere is much easier to package up and to imagine isn’t happening, than war right there, in your face. You can ignore the war in Iraq, much like you could have ignored the war in Vietnam, by simply turning off the TV. If the bombs were falling on your house, it would not be so easy to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![AbsolutelyFabulous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@AbsolutelyFabulous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbsolutelyFabulous)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/18 "2003-04-09T21:39:29Z")
I just have one question…How many defied resolutions does it take before action should be taken militarily? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/19 "2003-04-09T21:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AbsolutelyFabulous! \* > \*\*I just have one question…How many defied resolutions does it take before action should be taken militarily? \*\* UNSC resolutions? As many as the UNSC thinks are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557/20 "2003-04-09T22:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AbsolutelyFabulous! \* > How many defied resolutions does it take before action should be taken militarily? More than the 30-some-odd that Israel’s violated, apparently. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-france-and-germany/167557.md?page=2)