# Shame on those that refuse the vaccine **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2021, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870 "2021-07-20T01:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/482 "2021-08-09T22:46:22Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Rizzo, a cancer survivor, said in June while with the Cubs that he wanted to see more “data” before deciding whether to get vaccinated against COVID-19. See more data? Why? Is he a fucking scientist that understands immunology, and understands population data and multivariate statistics? Is he a medical doctor? No? He’s not an expert in this field? Then he does not “need to see more data”. Fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/483 "2021-08-10T00:14:20Z")
I could be wrong about herd immunity – possibly because our schools may end up becoming petri dishes. I’ll grant you that. I was initially basing that projection on the trends that have been observed in India and the UK. India’s trend has continued downward, but I noticed today that, within the past few days, the trend downward hasn’t been quite as sharp in the UK, which…just recently opened back up with few restrictions. This is obviously an evolving situation. So yeah, I’ll admittedly have to hedge a little on that point before bringing it up again. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/484 "2021-08-10T02:23:19Z")
Someone said it an another thread, but insurance companies need to get involved. Failure to be vaccinated should, at the very lease, be a contributory factor and they should either not fund the treatments or fund them at a much lower rate. Maybe go after them after treatment for recovery of the money. Or, **OR** …raise the rates for anyone who does not show them proof of vaccination. Or cancel them outright. \*\*\* They can be free to not be vaccinated, but they should not be able to make us pay for their inevitable sickness and treatment. \*\*\* This has probably made it’s way to several insurance company boardrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/485 "2021-08-10T06:09:45Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Or, **OR** …raise the rates for anyone who does not show them proof of vaccination. Or cancel them outright. \*\*\* We had a big national debate about this around twelve years ago, and the eventual decision was that it would become illegal for insurance companies to discriminate on the basis of prior medical history (or _anything_ other than age, location, smoking, and type of plan). So insurance companies _can’t_ do that. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/486 "2021-08-10T07:34:48Z")
> [@Daithi\_Lacha](#): > > As I’ve mentioned on several different threads, my wife became a full-throated Trump supporter, QAnon adherent and anti-vaxxer. Preliminary discussions about getting the vax weeks ago led her to make statements like, “Anyone who wants the vaccine is stupid,” and “Only idiots want to get the vaccine.” > > I’ve held off on getting the vaccine because I want to keep the peace, but I just can’t do that anymore. Yesterday I informed her that I was going to get the jab this week, and that I understand that she refuses and although it saddens me, I will respect her wishes and not nag her to get it as well (there would be no point, so why waste my breath?). > > It went as well as you might expect. Bitter recriminations, “Gotcha ya!” questions, highly suspect stats presented with “look it up if you don’t believe me!” added. All the stats come from the CDC so of course I should believe them - they’re the authorities! > > When I said that both my doctor and my pulmonary specialist (I’m asthmatic) recommended I get the Pfizer dose, she told me that well OF COURSE they would say that, they’re getting paid by the CDC and so have a vested interest in making money from this obvious scam. Then she adds, slyly, “I’m surprised your doctors didn’t tell you about Regeneron. It cures COVID!” This is clearly false; I don’t even bother arguing it. > > And then she says, “I think I had COVID earlier this year, and I survived!” > > First off, this is a lie. I’ve been working at home. She didn’t present any of the symptoms, period, never even complained of feeling unwell. And if it’s not a lie, and she was unwell but deliberately kept this information from me, I don’t know what that says about her. She knows I’m in a risk category, although she constantly denies I’m asthmatic. > > And now she’s barely talking to me, treating me like The Great Betrayer. This honestly has to be the saddest I’ve been in a very long time. I can’t believe that the simple act of looking after myself - and society - makes me a pariah in my own home. My mother is a Trumper but at least she’s not an anti-vaxxer and has had her two doses. I can’t imagine what it must be like living in the same house with someone you love who has drank the kool-aid and you cannot reason with. You have my sympathies. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/487 "2021-08-10T10:58:31Z")
But it’s not prior medical history necessarily; it’s a case of not taking preventative care or doing something that’s hazardous to one’s health. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/488 "2021-08-10T11:02:17Z")
Looks like insurance companies are considering some sort of action already: > **[Employers say they could dock the pay of employees who refuse to get a...](https://www.upworthy.com/employers-could-tax-employees-who-arent-vaccinated)** > > Could it work? > Health insurance companies are also considering a financial penalty for those who refuse to get vaccinated. Given the fact that [97% of all COVID-19 hospitalizations](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/health-insurance-unvaccinated.html) are now unvaccinated people, insurers want to encourage people to get the jab to avoid unnecessary six-figure payouts. Such a policy would also benefit the vaccinated who won’t have to pay for rising premiums caused by the unvaccinated. One thing that’s hardly ever discussed is the costs associated with treatment. People keep talking about how COVID isn’t that deadly. Well maybe it isn’t but if you end up getting hospitalized even for a day, that’ll crimp your lifestyle. Get hospitalized for several weeks, and it’s “Hello, bankruptcy.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/489 "2021-08-10T12:35:18Z")
I get the feeling an _“insurance MUST cover Covid unconditionally at no extra cost”_ regulation or even law, probably with compensation from the taxpayer’s money to the insurers for it, would get passed in a day in many states the moment someone cried “poor workers are being denied!!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/490 "2021-08-10T12:56:45Z")
‘Spreadnecks.’ That is all. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/491 "2021-08-10T13:22:54Z")
I love a good bout of schadenfreude as much as anybody else. I relish seeing high-profile GOP COVID-deniers suffering on a ventilator after publicly taking positions that endangered themselves and others. But look, we’re not going to shame our way out of this thing, and it’s going to have lasting effects if we try. It’s true that for many people, their refusal is coming from a place of “fuck you”. I have no sympathy for those people, but as a practical matter, each one of them will infect 8 other people, many of whom will be innocents. More importantly, there are many refusers out there who aren’t assholes, but are just misinformed or disinformed. They aren’t science-watchers, they may be afraid of needles, they may not understand the cost. There is a disinformation machine disproportionately pushing stories like [some COVID vaccines were inert saline](https://www.wistv.com/2021/06/28/very-limited-number-saline-only-covid-vaccines-accidentally-given-health-dept-says/), which finds fertile ground in communities that historically have good reason to distrust the medical establishment. I literally had a Black medical assistant the other day tell me that she wasn’t getting the vaccine for that specific reason. She thinks it’s just a money-making scam. (Are pharmas going to make money off this? Yes they are! This isn’t insane if you’re not a highly informed person!) Folks, we’re not going to get there by shaming people who are legitimately confused and misinformed. That’s going to drive them further away. As far as conservative Republicans motivated by spite, they can’t be shamed. You can’t be in that faction unless you ceremonially and conspicuously shredded your sense of shame years ago. Shame racists, shame assholes, but don’t shame vaccine hesitants. Although they don’t deserve empathy or tolerance, and I would love if this was a thing where they could just Darwin themselves out of existence, that’s not the reality. In fact, given a partially-vaccinated population, Darwin is just going to keep bringing us stronger and stronger variants. The next one may elude our current vaccines. The next one may be highly fatal to children. Get off the high horse. You’re gonna kill people. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/492 "2021-08-10T14:05:21Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Get off the high horse. You’re gonna kill people. We are the ones causing the covid deaths? 🤨 Your shaming of the shamers is contributing to deaths as well. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/493 "2021-08-10T14:08:06Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > We had a big national debate about this around twelve years ago, and the eventual decision was that it would become illegal for insurance companies to discriminate on the basis of prior medical history (or _anything_ other than age, location, smoking, and type of plan). So insurance companies _can’t_ do that. Insurance companies may not be able to punish the vaccine refusers, but they could provide a reward for proof of vaccination. I know that over the years, my health insurance (through work) has provided rebates on employee contributions for not smoking, for participation in an exercise program, for yearly checkups, etc. So if an insurance company raises _everyone’s_ rate by $500 per year, but provides a _reward_ of a $500 rebate for proof of vaccination, what’s to stop them? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/494 "2021-08-10T14:11:44Z")
I get my deductible cut in half ($500 to $250) for doing their very easy to complete health program. By early February of each year, I’ve already completed enough walking, biking, hiking and running for the entire year (it’s a very low bar). I’d support this type of program for vaccinations as well. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/495 "2021-08-10T14:15:51Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > We are the ones causing the covid deaths? 🤨 Your shaming of the shamers is contributing to deaths as well. 😀 For sure. Thousands of people are out there getting their jabs because a bunch of cranky alcoholics and dorks on the internet called them “spreadheads” and “wussies.” Huge factor in curing hesitancy. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/496 "2021-08-10T14:17:26Z")
It’s “spreadnecks”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/497 "2021-08-10T14:18:17Z")
cool man ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/498 "2021-08-10T14:29:41Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > For sure. Thousands of people are out there getting their jabs because a bunch of cranky alcoholics and dorks on the internet called them “spreadheads” and “wussies.” Huge factor in curing hesitancy. The problem isn’t “hesitancy”; it’s “willful ignorance”. And there’s no cure for it except by the person affected. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/499 "2021-08-10T14:38:57Z")
I know, I know. I’ve been reading this thread full of well-balanced and healthy individuals giving me the facts. I know now that it’s just a wildly stunning coincidence that vaccination levels skyrocket in lockstep with educational attainment. It’s both a “mental illness” and also totally on purpose that people aren’t getting vaccinated. It’s not that they’re just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/500 "2021-08-10T14:57:08Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I know, I know. I’ve been reading this thread full of well-balanced and healthy individuals giving me the facts. Did you miss the sign at the top saying “BBQ Pit”? If you want “facts” about vaccines and masks and so forth, we have a whole other forum for that. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I know now that it’s just a wildly stunning coincidence that vaccination levels skyrocket in lockstep with educational attainment. It’s both a “mental illness” and also totally on purpose that people aren’t getting vaccinated. It’s not that they’re just wrong. They’re definitely wrong. And a vast majority of them can be openly seen to be rejecting all medical advice and empirical data. Is it a “mental illness”? I dunno - I’m not a psychiatrist. But there’s certainly plenty of evidence for both “wrong” and “willfully ignorant.” Also, are you _sure_ you want to take the position that castigating people is the wrong way to go about changing their behaviors? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/501 "2021-08-10T15:05:31Z")
> [@Daithi\_Lacha](#): > > As I’ve mentioned on several different threads, my wife became a full-throated Trump supporter, QAnon adherent and anti-vaxxer. I’m sorry. I’ve got a brother who is all of those things (and a gun nut), but I don’t have to live with him. And for him, becoming a Trumpist isn’t a conversion, Trump just came along and fit in with beliefs my brother already had. So nobody in the family was really surprised. Back when I would talk to him about this kind of stuff, conversations were pretty much as you describe, but without the personal betrayal stuff, since we’ve always known each other. No surprises, so no betrayal. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > My brother and SIL are probably right there, too. My sister and BIL (or at least my sister, and my BIL is an old-fashioned conservative who will go along with my sister just to keep the peace, which, knowing my sister, is a good strategy), too, but they’re much less confrontational than my brother. And also, they live very far away, so there really aren’t the complications that come from regular contact. > [@BigT](#): > > She has a persecution fantasy. They all do, don’t they? Or at least it looks like that to me. That seems to be such a huge part of the Trumpist/anti-vaxx thing. I really have to try to understand this better. They all really want to be Christians in the catacombs or something (without, of course, having to suffer any actual persecution). > [@BigT](#): > > I draw the line at being friends with people who act like that. To each their own. I’m not going to cut off my brother. Or my sister, who’s actually better at keeping it to herself when necessary. I mean, you can hang with her all day, family gatherings, whatever, and it won’t come up unless someone else injects something into the conversation. Whereas, with my brother, it _will_ come up. And by “it,” I mean all the Trumpist craziness. The big problem is that our 88-year old father resides in a “memory care” facility. And in addition to severe dementia, he is unable to walk and has various other physical ailments. And I’d like my brother to visit my father. And my sister. And time is running out. Fast. But they won’t get vaxxed. Which they’d have to do to enter the facility. This is a really sad situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=26)