# Shame on those that refuse the vaccine **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2021, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870 "2021-07-20T01:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/502 "2021-08-10T15:13:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I love a good bout of schadenfreude as much as anybody else. I relish seeing high-profile GOP COVID-deniers suffering on a ventilator after publicly taking positions that endangered themselves and others. > > But look, we’re not going to shame our way out of this thing, and it’s going to have lasting effects if we try. You seem to be misinterpreting a thread saying “Shame on” someone to say we’re going to use shame to try and motivate them. No one is “on their high horse.” We’re just pissed at the people who still aren’t vaccinated. We see what they are doing as wrong. So we’re venting on them, not shaming them. They don’t post here, after all (save for one troll who won’t be convinced.) Speaking of which, I do think there’s a bit of a flaw in your post, even if we did assume we were shaming people. You keep bringing up groups that won’t be convinced at all. But those are irrelevant to the calculated. If they won’t be convinced, it doesn’t matter what tactic we use, so there’s no reason to focus on them. What we have to do is avoid attacking the people who can be convinced. And that is something I myself very much do. But that doesn’t mean I won’t tell them why they are wrong, and tell them why they make me angry. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/503 "2021-08-10T15:21:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > More importantly, there are many refusers out there who aren’t assholes, but are just misinformed or disinformed Fuck off with this nonsense. Seriously. They have taken **willful** ignorance to a whole new level and _revel_ in it. To be ignorant of Covid 19 requires work. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/504 "2021-08-10T15:21:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You seem to be misinterpreting a thread saying “Shame on” someone to say we’re going to use shame to try and motivate them. Distinction without a difference. > [@](#): > > No one is “on their high horse.” If I cared to persuade you I could pull a dozen examples out of this 500+ post thread, but I don’t really care to indulge knee-jerk contrarianism. Search for the term “educat” if you want to see some folks preening about how they’re so much smarter than the other dummies (who are also evil, don’t forget). > [@BigT](#): > > If they won’t be convinced, it doesn’t matter what tactic we use, so there’s no reason to focus on them. I didn’t say they can’t be convinced. I don’t know how to convince them, but I leave that possibility open. However I know for a fact that shame and mockery shuts people down. > [@BigT](#): > > But that doesn’t mean I won’t tell them why they are wrong, and tell them why they make me angry. Whatever scratches your itch, but know that you’re making it worse. Nobody gives a shit why you’re angry. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/505 "2021-08-10T15:24:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You seem to be misinterpreting a thread saying “Shame on” someone to say we’re going to use shame to try and motivate them. Shame can be a powerful motivator. I’m getting to that point with my brother. Maybe he _should_ feel shame because he hasn’t visited our father. Maybe it’s time for me, and some other relatives, to start making him feel that. I’m not there yet, but I’m pretty sure I’ll get there. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/506 "2021-08-10T15:25:03Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Fuck off with this nonsense. Seriously. They have taken **willful** ignorance to a whole new level and _revel_ in it. You’re simply wrong. A lot of people are refusing vaccines with their middle finger raised, but many more are simply confused and misinformed. And there’s an _enormous_ amount of information out there, enough to overwhelm casual information-seekers. > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > To be ignorant of Covid 19 requires work. If you think that, you’re ignorant of humans. You seem determined to wallow in that, so don’t let me stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/507 "2021-08-10T15:25:47Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Nobody gives a shit why you’re angry. **I’m** angry because their actions are needlessly contributing to the deaths of thousands. Which I consider quite a valid reason to be angry. And I’m aware they don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/508 "2021-08-10T15:26:30Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > To each their own. I’m not going to cut off my brother. Or my sister, who’s actually better at keeping it to herself when necessary. I mean, you can hang with her all day, family gatherings, whatever, and it won’t come up unless someone else injects something into the conversation. Whereas, with my brother, it _will_ come up. And by “it,” I mean all the Trumpist craziness. For me, it has nothing to do with whether the subject comes up. It has to do with them making excuses to avoid getting vaccinated, thus continuing to put other people at risk. If you can do that, then I don’t trust you as a person. It’s one thing to be hesitant. It’s another to start pushing off conspiracy theories, which are things you only believe if you _want_ to believe them. It’s another to deny the reality around you. There is a lot of ignorance I can put up with. There are a lot of differences of opinion I can put up with. But not over this. Not when you try to paint yourself as a martyr because you’re telling the truth about COVID, and fight against requiring vaccinations. They’re killing people. How can I be friends with a killer? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/509 "2021-08-10T15:27:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Shame can be a powerful motivator. I’m getting to that point with my brother. Shame is a good motivator when everyone agrees on shared values and what kind of behavior upholds those shared values. But it’s an absolute garbage way to persuade someone to adopt values or beliefs that they don’t already hold. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/510 "2021-08-10T15:29:02Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > > > To be ignorant of Covid 19 requires work. > > If you think that, you’re ignorant of humans. You seem determined to wallow in that, so don’t let me stop you. So you think shaming people is bad, yet here you are in this thread trying to shame people. I gave my nicer response first, because I thought you just misunderstood. But you seem to just want to pretend like you’re better than everyone else here. So, to that, I say “Fuck off.” ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/511 "2021-08-10T15:30:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If you can do that, then I don’t trust you as a person. I get that. I really do. But here’s the thing – my brother is absolutely trustworthy. I’d happily put all my life savings in a brown paper bag and hand it to him, saying “hold on to this for me for a while.” He wouldn’t even look in the bag. I’d trust him with my children, and did, often, before COVID. And I trust him not to deceive me or anyone else about his vaccination status. Look, I’m not defending my brother’s craziness. Especially not the anti-vaxx stuff. But I absolutely trust him as a person. Without reservation. Trustworthiness and craziness are different things, and not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/512 "2021-08-10T15:32:13Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But it’s an absolute garbage way to persuade someone to adopt values or beliefs that they don’t already hold. That is largely true, I think. But _shouldn’t_ my brother be ashamed that he won’t do what’s necessary to visit our aging father? I mean, I would be. I don’t know. Just trying to get this to happen. I’m running out of tricks in the bag. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/513 "2021-08-10T15:32:49Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > If you can do that, then I don’t trust you as a person. > > I get that. I really do. But here’s the thing – my brother is absolutely trustworthy. I’d happily put all my life savings in a brown paper bag and hand it to him, saying “hold on to this for me for a while.” He wouldn’t even look in the bag. Well, both of us are to some extent talking categorically, and to some extent talking about individual people. If you know that this is a complete aberration from this person, then it makes more sense to see them as an exception. For me, though, this is a person who likes to paint herself as a martyr. So the general rule applies just fine. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/514 "2021-08-10T15:33:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But you seem to just want to pretend like you’re better than everyone else here. So, to that, I say “Fuck off.” This is a beautiful and elegant demonstration of my point. I doubt you intended it, but thanks anyway. Embarrassing people doesn’t work if we don’t agree about what’s embarrassing, or why. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/515 "2021-08-10T15:35:26Z")
The only (and controversial) position that I’ve taken is that saying you hope that people die because they don’t know the vaccine is good for them is bad. I didn’t ask anyone for any facts; I just keep hearing from all the other people in this thread who, unlike you, _are_ mental health professionals, and who know that every single person who could be vaccinated but has not has made that choice with full recklessness toward the truth of the science behind it. Maybe not even recklessness. It might be actual knowledge that they’re wrong, and they choose it anyway. Each and every one of them has chosen the path of wickedness, and it is meet that they be punished for their sins. And obviously, therefore, it is righteous to say you hope they die. There is no such thing as just, like, some 20 year old in Mississippi who is surrounded by people who have always said vaccines are bad, and has very little wherewithal to determine that literally everyone they know is wrong about that, but who would make a different decision if they were just surrounded by different people. That person does not exist, but if they did, they should die. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/517 "2021-08-10T15:49:10Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > It’s “spreadnecks” Too cute for these assholes. I would go with “Infectionists”. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/518 "2021-08-10T15:54:25Z")
That’s a good one and will be added to my vocab! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/519 "2021-08-10T16:01:26Z")
How about insurfectionist? Covers 2 sins in 1! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/520 "2021-08-10T16:06:47Z")
“I will listen to Bubba down at the bait shop about Covid because he heard it at a Trump rally, and I will seek information form the pillow crackhead and the Pastor who says he knows that Trump was ALREADY inaugurated back in May, but I will not listen to Doctors, Nurses, scientists, the CDC, The New York Times, CNN, MSN, the local TV News, even FOX fucking News” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/521 "2021-08-10T16:07:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s one thing to be hesitant. It’s another to start pushing off conspiracy theories, which are things you only believe if you _want_ to believe them. It’s another to deny the reality around you. Let me ask you an honest question. COVID was a major issue in the US Presidential election which was held on November 3rd, and was (more or less) called on November 7th, 2020. Pfizer/BioNTech announced the availability of the first COVID vaccine on November 7th, 2020. What if instead it had been announced by Donald Trump on November 2nd, 2020? Would you immediately trust this vaccine that uses completely novel genetic technology to trick your own body into manufacturing pieces of COVID, coincidentally released at the time most beneficial to a known, corrupt liar? Want to try and tell me you wouldn’t have been sketched out by that, at least a little? I’d have found it sketchy as fuck. If the CDC vouched for it, I’d have assumed Trump corrupted them like he corrupts everyone around him. The only way to dispel that sketchiness would be to dig deep into the low-level technical details and understand that this technology is indeed legit. I have a BS in biology, so I could reason through the science on my own (and I have. It’s pretty amazing). But most people don’t. Most people don’t understand the world via access to primary sources; it’s entirely mediated by systems of trust and authority that have been blown all to shit. So before you jump up someone’s ass for not trusting “the Fauci ouchie” announced the day after the election, ask yourself if you’d have been as willing to trust a “Trump Vaccine” announced the day before the election. Perhaps you’re that rational; most people aren’t. Now we’re asking them to shed this delusion amid a blizzard of mockery and condemnation. I get the outrage and frustration, but it’s so counterproductive and it makes me sad. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/522 "2021-08-10T16:11:13Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What if instead it had been announced by Donald Trump on November 2nd, 2020? Would you immediately trust this vaccine that uses completely novel genetic technology to trick your own body into manufacturing pieces of COVID, coincidentally released at the time most beneficial to a known, corrupt liar? > > Want to try and tell me you wouldn’t have been sketched out by a press release that came out right before the election, about a never-been-tried technology, that would solve the biggest obstacle to Trump’s re-election? No need to speculate; Cuomo and to a much lesser extent Kamala Harris both suggested that they would not trust the Trump administration’s rigor in the event a vaccine were announced. Cuomo went as far as to say that he wouldn’t recommend to anyone in New York that they trust anyone in the federal government’s word on a vaccine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=27)