# Shame on those that refuse the vaccine **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2021, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870 "2021-07-20T01:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/663 "2021-08-19T02:40:29Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > I’m saying that seatbelt laws are the government dictating what should be my choice. Me dying without a seatbelt is NOT the equivalent of me visiting a nursing home and hugging the residents without being vaccinated. This does ignore the very real possibility of your driving, unseatbelted, and involved in an accident that that could leave you in a hospital bed for the rest of your life. That has happened to a lot of people. When I quoted that 70 billion in one year, that kind of thing is what it was talking about. The cost of your decision will outpace all your insurance (probably mandated) and all your wealth. WE will spend more on your decision than it would take to send a couple of kids to school for all their lives. And it can prevented with a seatbelt. It makes you safer. It saves lives, it reduces hospital expenses, is so simple. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/664 "2021-08-19T02:45:49Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > So you support China’s ‘one child per family’ policy. And of course you approve of yard darts being outlawed because they did kill one child. And it’s perfectly reasonable to lock people up if they won’t stay home when you think they should. I support a law that prohibits you (and me) from smoking crack. Does that mean I support China’s “one child per family” policy? Or a Snickers ban? 'Cause I don’t. So there’s a flaw in your logic somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/665 "2021-08-19T03:46:50Z")
Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/666 "2021-08-19T06:30:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > But you seem to just want to pretend like you’re better than everyone else here. So, to that, I say “Fuck off.” > > This is a beautiful and elegant demonstration of my point. I doubt you intended it, but thanks anyway. > > Embarrassing people doesn’t work if we don’t agree about what’s embarrassing, or why. The problem with your argument is that I accomplished exactly what I wanted. I got to tell you off for being an asshole, and I made an argument you were apparently unable to refute. Again, nothing about this thread suggests that anyone is advocating using shame to stop these people. People are using the Pit as as place to vent, a place to say what you want to say to people’s face but can’t. And there remains a wide gulf between those who are uncertain, and those who deny their own eyes, seeing all the vaccinated people who are fine, and choose to believe it is still somehow dangerous. They see all these people around them getting sick, and even people dying, and they continue to ignore reality. And, that BTW, is the answer to your other “real question.” Even if the vaccine came under Trump and I somehow forgot how to do basic research online, I would still know how to talk to my doctor and listen to my nursing friends. I would still see all the people around me who were vaccinated and weren’t harmed by that vaccination. I’d see the people getting really sick and even dying around me. I’d see all my friends in the nursing profession saying to get vaccinated… I’d see the children who were dying and want to protect my own kids. And I’d remember that my mom was unable to get a bed at the hospital because the beds were all full with COVID-19 patients. If you’re so privileged that you’ve not faced the tragedy of this disease, then kindly stop trying to shame me. You claimed it doesn’t work, so why the fuck are you trying it? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/667 "2021-08-19T07:26:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. Yeah… I know of a guy like that. He’s out of his gord. I actually feel sorry for the cops that have to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/668 "2021-08-19T11:17:36Z")
Someone like this guy? > **[Benjamin Glynn to be deported by ICA: Singapore Prison Service](https://sg.news.yahoo.com/benjamin-glynn-deported-by-ica-singapore-prison-service-032319804.html)** > > British expatriate Benjamin Glynn was handed over to the Immigration & Checkpoints Authority (ICA) on Wednesday. > [@](#): > > "I understand trust law, contract law, tort law, I have studied this for quite a long time. It is not difficult to understand common law. I know what a crime is, there must be a victim which is a living man or woman, not a legal fiction which is what you are, officers. You are not living men and women, they are legal fictions. I am living man, I control my public trust,” he said. > > “So therefore I do not consent to this maritime contract, I have not agreed to (a) contract and they have no jurisdiction over me, it’s fairly simple," he said. That argument did not go as well as he had hoped: > [@](#): > > However [District Judge] Tham found that Glynn’s understanding of the law was “completely misguided” as the COVID-19 legislations were passed under law by Singapore’s Parliament. ETA: Note that this guy was also remanded to the Institute of Mental Health in Singapore for about two weeks. One doesn’t have to look very hard to guess why. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/669 "2021-08-19T12:26:32Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. So far he just seems like your garden-variety libertarian, a little too dazzled by the power of the slippery slope argument. Slippery slope arguments are useful sometimes, but they’re meaningless on a large scale. Kind of like using your weed whacker for large-scale timber operations. Also, I _hate_ that bullshit argument – “so you’re saying that…” But unlike the sovereign citizens, who are usually somewhat unbalanced, there’s hope for the libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Ziberian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/919ad9/32.png) [@Ziberian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziberian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/670 "2021-08-19T12:36:12Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And don’t get started on speed limits and stop signs! Just who does society think it is telling me I have to stop at intersections! AmIright @Ziberian? No, you’re confusing actions that have direct impact on others (no stop signs) with those that don’t (seatbelt). ---
**Author:** ![Ziberian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/919ad9/32.png) [@Ziberian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziberian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/671 "2021-08-19T12:38:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. Then clearly, reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![Ziberian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/919ad9/32.png) [@Ziberian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziberian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/672 "2021-08-19T12:48:03Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I support a law that prohibits you (and me) from smoking crack. > > Does that mean I support China’s “one child per family” policy? Or a Snickers ban? 'Cause I don’t. So there’s a flaw in your logic somewhere. I oppose laws prohibiting drug use. After 50 years of the ‘War on Drugs’, it’s quite clear they don’t work. I believe that money could much better be used on educating people about crack & providing quality rehab. I gave examples of your ‘for the good of society’ policy in action, you claim you don’t support these laws, but you think there’s a flaw in _my_ logic. So long as you are convinced that government overreach can’t happen (and certainly not to _you_), I can’t penetrate that dream world, so let’s let it go. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/673 "2021-08-19T12:57:23Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > No, you’re confusing actions that have direct impact on others (no stop signs) with those that don’t (seatbelt). When people don’t wear seatbelts, traffic accidents become more costly due to personal injury Costly traffic accidents = higher insurance premiums Higher premiums impact me regardless of my own personal choice to wear seatbelts When the government requires seatbelt use, society’s use of seatbelts increases As seatbelt use increases, the cost of traffic accidents goes down As the cost of traffic accidents goes down, market forces reduce the price of insurance Your personal use of a seatbelt does not affect me. Society’s use of seatbelts does affect me. You’ll note a direct parallel with our current situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ziberian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/919ad9/32.png) [@Ziberian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ziberian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/674 "2021-08-19T12:58:50Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > [@Atamasama](#): > > > > Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. > > So far he just seems like your garden-variety libertarian, a little too dazzled by the power of the slippery slope argument. Slippery slope arguments are useful sometimes, but they’re meaningless on a large scale. Kind of like using your weed whacker for large-scale timber operations. > > Also, I _hate_ that bullshit argument – “so you’re saying that…” > > But unlike the sovereign citizens, who are usually somewhat unbalanced, there’s hope for the libertarians. You have no problem dumping individual choice for ‘the greater good’, ignoring laws and the Constitution if that’s what’s you think is needed at the moment. You are preaching exactly the same logic Conservatives use (see anti-abortion laws in every state they control, and maybe look at their anti-voting laws too), but I bet you consider yourself liberal. Surprise, you’re not nearly as open-minded as you’d like to think. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/675 "2021-08-19T13:04:04Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > You have no problem dumping individual choice for ‘the greater good’, ignoring laws and the Constitution if that’s what’s you think is needed at the moment. Well, _yes_, sometimes the greater good has to be put ahead of individual choice. I don’t know what laws you think I’m ignoring, but the Constitution provides a framework for, among other things, deciding to what extent the greater good can be prioritized over some vague right to “individual choice” (whatever that means). One can’t live in a complex, fast-moving, incredibly diverse society, and reap the benefits of such a life, and still say that your own choices must at all times be paramount. There are trade-offs. If someone is unwilling to make those trade-offs, that’s fine, but there are no free rides. That person should go live off the grid somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/676 "2021-08-19T13:15:02Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > Following your logic, there should be laws against alcohol, There are. You have to be a certain age to purchase; many states restrict who can sell and what hours they can sell; there are laws about manufacturing, distributing, etc. > [@Ziberian](#): > > smoking, There are. You have to be a certain age to purchase; many states / localities limit where you can smoke. > [@Ziberian](#): > > obesity, fast food, Snickers bars, all sports, OK, you got us there. > [@Ziberian](#): > > crossing the street, There are. You can get ticketed for crossing outside of a marked crosswalk, just like you can get ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt. > [@Ziberian](#): > > And there will need to be regulations on how much sleep you’re required to have before you can drive. There are - for certain industries. Long-haul truckers still have logbooks and must rest after a certain amount of driving. We, as a society, have a whole bunch of laws protecting us from ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/677 "2021-08-19T13:48:26Z")
In short, there is always a balance to be achieved between individual freedom and the collective greater good for society. There is and will always be debate over where on the continuum the dividing line should be, but slippery slope arguments that insist that any movement in either direction will inevitably result in the line being abruptly flung out to the far extreme are not realistic or constructive. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/678 "2021-08-19T13:57:42Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > > [@Ziberian](#): > > > > obesity, fast food, Snickers bars, all sports, > > OK, you got us there. Not really. All of those are regulated, primarily in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/679 "2021-08-19T14:10:20Z")
Don’t know that they are REGULATED - there’s no one at the door checking brown bags for contraband candy bars. You could say that the school lunch program, with their rules on dietary content, are regulating the lunches, but there’s nothing keeping a parent from sending their kid to school with nothing but a stick of butter for lunch. (actually, at our local grade school, if the kid is constantly bringing in inappropriately unhealthy lunches, they do send information home on what constitutes a good lunch) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/680 "2021-08-19T14:38:23Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > You could say that the school lunch program, with their rules on dietary content, are regulating the lunches, Yeah, I was referring to what could be purchased in the school. Not just lunches but also junk food from vending machines. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/681 "2021-08-19T14:50:31Z")
> [@Ziberian](#): > > No, you’re confusing actions that have direct impact on others (no stop signs) with those that don’t (seatbelt). And you’re guarantying that your not wearing a seatbelt will not have direct impact on others how exactly? IOW If you get into an accident and roll over you’re controlling the direction your body is flung how? ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870/682 "2021-08-19T14:59:24Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Ziberian comes off as one of those Sovereign Citizen fuckwads. I wouldn’t waste my time creating joinder with his dumbassery. Yeah, wasting a perfectly good anti-anti-vaxxer thread on this guy. There’s lots more anti-vaxxers who are killing a lot more people right now than this blockhead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-those-that-refuse-the-vaccine/946870.md?page=35)