# Shame On You Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201 "2011-09-05T00:19:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/61 "2011-09-06T00:30:34Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m pretty sure Unit 731 was on a _larger_ scale than the “scientific” experiments the Nazis did. I’m talking about the entire Holocaust itself, versus just that one section. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/62 "2011-09-06T01:12:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If of course in Europe a Nazi or a Stalinist apologist gained political office it would rightfully cause great indignition but apparently this man who thinks the Japanese war criminals of World War II were not really war criminals becoming Prime Minister is unremarkable. This makes one wonder whether Japan truly reformed like say Germany after World War II or like the post Civil War South instead engages in apologism and whining and bitching about supposed war crimes against themselves Japan certainly did not and was not forced to fully reform any time soon after the war. There wasn’t AFAICT a “de-nazificatoin” equivalent. My impression is that in the ranges older than the current crop of people in their 20s and 30s, the attitude of most Japanese was more than a little ambivalent as to the Empire and the war. I think the lesson most Japanese took away in 1945 was that having a militaristic government would lead to great hardship, and they took that useful lesson (weren’t given much of a choice, but embraced the American dictate) to the extreme of abandoning any military capability. Good enough, but I don’t think they always threw away all the attitudes (implicit belief in the superiority of Japanese culture to at least all other Asian cultures; bushido culture, etc.) that underlay or went with the Emperor system. Every national Japanese politician, as I understand it, historically has gone to the Yasukuni Shrine. This guy’s just a little more honest in saying he doesn’t see why everyone’s making such a big deal about national heroes like Tojo being war criminals. This is also craven domestic politics. There is a small but very vocal nationalist movement to whom keeping the symbols of the Empire is a big deal. They drive around Tokyo with jeeps blasting old Imperial war songs. For whatever reason, doing anything that would offend them (such as openly condemning the war criminals, or refusing to go to the Shrine) is viewed as something of a third rail. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/63 "2011-09-06T02:20:15Z")
No, we didn’t rape Nanking or anything - we just collected [Japanese heads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead) and [raped citizens of Allied countries](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8084210.stm). It really is a shame what kids learn in school these days. As a history teacher, I have to tread carefully because challenging popular opinion that the U.S. was the Ultimate Moral Authority Against Those Big Bad Japs & Nazis can get you written up pretty quick. add: On the subject of war crimes, I’d add that countries do whatever they can do to get ahead. The Japanese _and_ the Chinese both tolerated rape in their military cultures. Had the situation been reversed, there may have been a Rape of Tokyo. Palestinians lob rockets into Sderot because that’s their option right now, and we blasted the fuck out of Dresden because it seemed like a good way to hurt the enemy. “War crimes” are, like I said before, kind of in the eye of the receiver. Some are ‘worse’ than others (if you could so weight that), but it is really ridiculous to say that the Allies were not guilty of what we consider to be ‘war crimes’ circa 1930s-40s. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/64 "2011-09-06T03:19:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No, we didn’t rape Nanking or anything - we just collected [Japanese heads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead)… At least they were dead while they were being mutilated. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/65 "2011-09-06T04:38:40Z")
It hardly makes the Allies look ‘civilized’. I mean, take a [look](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Tokio_Kid_Say.png) at [racist](http://www.greatdreams.com/war/WWII-propaganda.png) [war](http://bonbonhistory.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/seuss021.jpg) [propaganda](http://farewellmanzanar.wikispaces.com/file/view/japs_propagnaas.jpg). Who knows how many women were raped during the occupation, or how many civilians were mercilessly killed? Man is man and war is war. Put enough hate in someone and give him a gun and it’s hard to control the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/66 "2011-09-06T05:24:26Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Japan certainly did not and was not forced to fully reform any time soon after the war. There wasn’t AFAICT a “de-nazificatoin” equivalent. No, there was a purge of tens of thousands wartime officials and a major effort to “democratize” Japan. We enacted women’s suffrage, imposed a new constitution, completely revamped and decentralized their education system, etc. Many aspects of it didn’t take the way it did in Germany for a number of reasons, including Allied backpedaling after the loss of China and comparative ignorance of Japanese society and government. We failed to fully purge the bureaucracy, for example, because we didn’t understand how important it was, they were indirectly tied to crimes and abuses (in Japan, there were no convenient Nazi party membership lists to use as evidence of ideological guilt), and we needed to use them to run the Occupation for us. In Germany, Nazism was an “alien” ideology that had only been in power for 12 years. In Japan, it was impossible to purge everyone who had been involved in militarism and “territorial aggrandizement” for the previous 50 years. There’d be no one left. > [@](#): > > Every national Japanese politician, as I understand it, historically has gone to the Yasukuni Shrine. This guy’s just a little more honest in saying he doesn’t see why everyone’s making such a big deal about national heroes like Tojo being war criminals. The last prime minister to visit Yasukuni was Koizumi. I interpret his statement that he “will follow the standard set by previous administrations” to mean that he won’t be visiting the shrine. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/67 "2011-09-06T11:41:53Z")
The correct answer is post #37. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/68 "2011-09-06T14:39:09Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > The correct answer is post #37. No, it overstates its case. Imperial Japan was brutal and cruel but never pursued extermination. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/69 "2011-09-07T00:19:51Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > The Japanese PM’s behavior is abominable. > > Getting a lecture from **Qin Shi Huangdi** on war crimes, however, is like getting a lecture on property rights from a cat burglar. When have I advocated war crimes? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/70 "2011-09-07T00:25:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I challenge anyone to read about Unit 731 and still think that what America did is “just as bad” as what Japan did. Well, this is the board on which someone stated that the way Faramir slapped around Gollum in the _Lord of the Rings_ movies made him as evil as Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/71 "2011-09-07T01:08:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > When have I advocated war crimes? :dubious: Do I really have to go and pull up your posting history on the Iraq War? I have yet to see you express any dismay or outrage over what has happened in Iraq. Instead, for you, the Iraq War is nothing more than an excuse to bash Democrats over the head with. If you actually cared about war crimes, you would have been outraged that there were no WMDs and you would have been heartbroken about the lack of post-war planning. If you actually cared about war crimes, you would be demanding even now that Congress appoint a special prosecutor to investigate all of the unresolved serious allegations spanning our entire mission in Iraq. But you aren’t. Your “concern” about war crimes is as hollow as your fake claim to be “pro-life.” All you ever do on this board is advocate deeply immoral and sinful positions. From an advocacy standpoint, you are no different than any Japanese PM who downplays war crimes. Thankfully, you don’t have any power, so the rest of us have one less immoral person to worry about at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/72 "2011-09-07T01:14:59Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Do I really have to go and pull up your posting history on the Iraq War? I have yet to see you express any dismay or outrage over what has happened in Iraq. Instead, for you, the Iraq War is nothing more than an excuse to bash Democrats over the head with. > > If you actually cared about war crimes, you would have been outraged that there were no WMDs and you would have been heartbroken about the lack of post-war planning. If you actually cared about war crimes, you would be demanding even now that Congress appoint a special prosecutor to investigate all of the unresolved serious allegations spanning our entire mission in Iraq. But you aren’t. Your “concern” about war crimes is as hollow as your fake claim to be “pro-life.” All you ever do on this board is advocate deeply immoral and sinful positions. > > From an advocacy standpoint, you are no different than any Japanese PM who downplays war crimes. Thankfully, you don’t have any power, so the rest of us have one less immoral person to worry about at the moment. Actually with hindsight I would have opposed the Iraq War. But since we invaded, we should clean up our own mess-which George W Bush did. Unlike many Presidents he solved a problem he himself created. Not to mention it is absurd to compare the Iraq War to the Japanese campaigns in China. It is only a slightly disguised way of using the Hitler card actually. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/73 "2011-09-07T01:23:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Actually with hindsight I would have opposed the Iraq War. But since we invaded, we should clean up our own mess-which George W Bush did. Unlike many Presidents he solved a problem he himself created. He solved them? Again, here comes the immoral downplaying of serious ongoing problems in Iraq. There are still tens of millions of people displaced, either internally or sitting in refugee camps in bordering countries. Under your warped morality (or I should say complete lack of morality), this is considered solved? What a disgusting person you are. Additionally, you manage to glibly ignore the hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. Then there are the ongoing revelations via Wikileaks of numerous potential war crimes. And yet, here you are, telling us the problems were “solved” by President Bush. I can’t even fathom how someone can post this sort of immoral crap. You’ve proven my point though. You don’t actually care about war crimes. If you did, you wouldn’t have ever posted this tripe. > [@](#): > > Not to mention it is absurd to compare the Iraq War to the Japanese campaigns in China. It is only a slightly disguised way of using the Hitler card actually. Of course, I didn’t compare Iraq to Japan’s campaigns in China (which is your transparent attempt at misdirection). I am directly calling you a person who downplays war crimes and tries to carry water for war criminals. And that is what you are. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/74 "2011-09-07T16:08:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > add: On the subject of war crimes, I’d add that countries do whatever they can do to get ahead. The Japanese _and_ the Chinese both tolerated rape in their military cultures. Had the situation been reversed, there may have been a Rape of Tokyo. Palestinians lob rockets into Sderot because that’s their option right now, and we blasted the fuck out of Dresden because it seemed like a good way to hurt the enemy. “War crimes” are, like I said before, kind of in the eye of the receiver. Some are ‘worse’ than others (if you could so weight that), but it is really ridiculous to say that the Allies were not guilty of what we consider to be ‘war crimes’ circa 1930s-40s. No one denies there were Allied warcrimes. There are **always** war crimes by every army, since the concept of war crimes emerged. Allied solstice did at times loot and rape. But Japan and Nazi Germany had a top down **policy** of committing war crimes. “Blasting the fuck out of Dresden” simply wasn’t a war crime, though. It was an act of war - unpleasant but at the time justifiable. And as a history teacher, or indeed any teacher, the idea that China would have done the same is a scary one to bring up. China didn’t start a war of aggression against Japan. China didn’t invade Japanese territory. China didn’t rape and murder hundreds of thousands of Tokyo residents. These are things the Japanese did, not some presumption you make about what would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/75 "2011-09-07T17:50:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No, we didn’t rape Nanking or anything - we just collected [Japanese heads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead) and [raped citizens of Allied countries](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8084210.stm). And US soldiers have raped citizens of the US as well, not to mention robbed, assaulted, and murdered. These are crimes. Soldiers commit them too, you know, wherever they may be located, just like civilians, and deserve punishment for them in the same way. They are frequently more common in wartime, and more likely to be unpunished, for various reasons including disruption of normal police functions, focus of the military on combat rather than “civilian” issues, and the general confusion and quick movement out of the area of the perpetrators. But they don’t become _war_ crimes until there is an official policy to encourage this kind of behaviour. The Germans and Japanese (and the Soviets) had such policies on a massive scale, the US and other Western Allies did not. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/76 "2011-09-07T20:15:48Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > No, it overstates its case. Imperial Japan was brutal and cruel but never pursued extermination. This may technically be correct, but they certainly didn’t go out of their way to assist the people that they were conquering. A national identity built on centuries of belief that they were the humans, and Koreans, Chinese, SE Asians and the like were less than human, while not as outrightly evil as the Holocaust, I think is built on the same foundation that leads to that sort of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/77 "2011-09-08T09:16:31Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > A national identity built on centuries of belief that they were the humans, and Koreans, Chinese, SE Asians and the like were less than human, while not as outrightly evil as the Holocaust I’m going to need a cite for this, as it contradicts pretty much everything I know about pre-WW2 Japanese society. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/78 "2011-09-08T10:55:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Curtis Lemay said he would have been tried as a war criminal if Japan won. > The winner gets to try the generals they want to after the war. The guy who was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun (Grand Cordon)? It seems the Japanese take exception to your contention. But we have a lovely copy of the home game for you and your family. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/79 "2011-09-08T11:14:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The guy who was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun (Grand Cordon)? It seems the Japanese take exception to your contention. > > But we have a lovely copy of the home game for you and your family. I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. General Curtis Lemay did in fact speculate that he would have been tried as a war criminal had the Allies lost the war. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201/80 "2011-09-09T00:50:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The guy who was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun (Grand Cordon)? It seems the Japanese take exception to your contention. > > But we have a lovely copy of the home game for you and your family. You are wrong but I can tell you where to send it. > **[Curtis LeMay - History Learning Site](https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/military-commanders-of-world-war-two/curtis-lemay/)** > > Curtis LeMay is credited with introducing the fire raids on Japan during World War Two. LeMay had few qualms about the raids believing that they would shorten the war. As with ‘Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris of the RAF and head of Bomber Command, LeMay... Inside the white box. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shame-on-you-japan/595201.md?page=3)