# "Share the road" works both ways! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790 "2006-01-27T01:17:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/121 "2006-01-28T02:56:03Z")
You know, today we were driving across town on the four-lane arterial streets (there are no freeways here). While we were in the left lane we kept having to slow down and even stop for left-turning cars. In the right lane we kept having to slow down/ stop for busses, delivery trucks, people turning right waiting for pedestrians to cross, people trying to park (sometimes very very badly), and bicyclists. Sometimes we would switch lanes to continue progress to the next red light a bit quicker. We got home. The OP was on a FOUR LANE. What was the problem? Was the other lane dirty or something? Would you blow a gasket if you waited for someone to finish street-parking? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/122 "2006-01-28T02:57:39Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > Even though that wasn’t directed at me, I’m compelled to put forth my views once again: I happily show courtesy to and respect the legal rights of bikers, as long as they do the same to me. The two bozos from the OP started out, by riding side-by-side, showing no respect to ANY of the cars on the road, so why should I show them respect? The problem is though, others have pointed out using facts and logic why it can often be reasonable to ride side by side, and your response is just to be abusive. It ain’t going to get you anywhere till you deal with the arguments. And by the way, attempting to assert that disagreeing with you is insane isn’t going to get you anywhere on these boards, ever. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/123 "2006-01-28T03:05:19Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > At least in the US, car registration and petrol (gas) tax is not enough to maintain all the roads. Taxes from other sources are used to supplement them. I think that’s the case for most countries. > > But cars need more than just roads and road maintenance. There’s also the cost of law enforcement on the roads, parking space for public and government buildings, all the undesirable effects of urban sprawl, and cost to the health care system from automobile accidents, pollution (smog) and lack of excercise. And arguably, the environmental cost from oil drilling, and the cost of military operations necessary to guarantee a supply of oil. Sure, other tax supplements roads but car users still pay way more taxes specific to road use than bike users, unless they too use cars. I think Holland has the answer: bike tracks on every road. We have a few here but not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/124 "2006-01-28T03:08:30Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Just wanted to point out that here, Australia and Britain car owners pay road tax with their registration fee and a large percentage of petrol is taxed for roads. That would mean that car road users pay way more than bike road users. How about the US? A bike versus cars thread and it takes till page three for someone to bring up the taxes gambit. A new record. Anyway, the simple response is this: while it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, in most places taxes from road tax and petrol go into general revenue. Certainly in both NZ and Australia. Money then comes out of general revenue to pay for stuff, including roads. Which is just as well for road users, because road user taxes are not sufficient to cover the cost of roads. If you want to start arguing that your access to public facilities should depend upon the taxes that you pay, then fine. I’m a partner in a successful law firm. Modesty forbids, but it’s basically going to be true that I pay a shitload more tax than most people I meet on the road. I assume they’ll all be getting out of my way? Or would you not be happy with that? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/125 "2006-01-28T03:08:47Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Your hobby should not get to dictate traffic conditions. Whether I’m in my car speeding or not is none of your concern. I may have a perfectly good reason to do so. I might have a family emergency. I might be taking my pregnant wife to the hospital. I might be doing any one of millions of human activities that might require a certain amount of haste, and your pokey, fragile butt should not have the right to hold me up while I’m using a thoroughfare on which people normally travel at many times your speed. Dude, my hobby doesn’t dictate traffic conditions. My hobbies are reading and candlelit dinners and walks on the beach… oh wait. Wrong thread. But still, I don’t ride bikes. I have no sense of balance and would end up squashed. And, as I pointed out waaaay up above, people have lots of reasons for riding bicycles, just as you might have lots of reasons for speeding. Those reasons don’t go away just because you’re in a hurry. Other people don’t go away just because you’re in a hurry. They never ever will. I think a normal person gets impatient every once in a while. If you’re upset every time someone slows you down, well, that’s a problem. But it’s your problem, not someone else’s. When it’s a real emergency, feel free to bitch if you’re delayed. I was delayed once going to a hospital because the person in front of me hit a deer. Considering how many times I’ve been party to a rush to the hospital moment, it’s a mercy there haven’t been more delays. In the case of a real emergency, call 9-11. They have sirens for that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/126 "2006-01-28T03:10:36Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > It was THEY, the bikers, who clearly demonstrated their desire for the cars to get off the road so that they (the bikers) wouldn’t be interfered with. You, sir, are a fool or a liar. Read this thread. Go through this thread and do a count. You are living in an alternate universe. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/127 "2006-01-28T03:11:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You, sir, are a fool or a liar. Read this thread. Go through this thread and do a count. You are living in an alternate universe. I think he was refering to the bikers he was ranting about in his OP, not the bikers who posted to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/128 "2006-01-28T03:16:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You have a choice about being on that bike. > > That applies to your little old lady on a walker, as well, **jsgoddess**. Tell me, if she’d been a healthy twenty year old who was just meandering down the path, maybe talking on a cell phone, wouldn’t you be just a little annoyed at him for blocking your path? Even if it was just for a few seconds? The same goes for bicyclists: they’ve decided that their hobby is more important than consideration for other people. I’ve got a real problem with that in any context, not just when I’m behind the wheel. I’ve already mentioned lots of reasons people might be on bicycles, but you seem sure that everyone has the option to be driving. Is your world that narrow? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/129 "2006-01-28T03:18:02Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Sure, other tax supplements roads but car users still pay way more taxes specific to road use than bike users, unless they too use cars. I think Holland has the answer: bike tracks on every road. We have a few here but not enough. I live in an expensive area. I pay more council rates than average. My garbage should be collected more often that yours. My expensive house meant I paid more State stamp duty than average. My children should get first choice of teachers and schools, and I should go on a fast track when waiting on hospital lists. My income means I pay more Federal Income tax than most. I should get a sticker that allows me to drive down a special fast lane on Interstates so I’m not held up by people who don’t pay as much tax. You agree with all that, doncha MelCthefirst? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/130 "2006-01-28T03:19:44Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Your hobby should not get to dictate traffic conditions. I assume then that you never create traffic for recreatonal purposes. Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/131 "2006-01-28T03:47:08Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I live in an expensive area. I pay more council rates than average. My garbage should be collected more often that yours. > > My expensive house meant I paid more State stamp duty than average. My children should get first choice of teachers and schools, and I should go on a fast track when waiting on hospital lists. > > My income means I pay more Federal Income tax than most. I should get a sticker that allows me to drive down a special fast lane on Interstates so I’m not held up by people who don’t pay as much tax. > > You agree with all that, doncha MelCthefirst? That does sound inequitable when you paint it broadly like that but it kind of happens anyway. I pay less tax on my property because it is in a lowsocioeconomic area and the council will not put gas lines down my road, whereas they will in richer areas. Ditto schools other facilities. Hey, you haven’t read the whole thread- I was initially responding to a post that said that bikers paid taxes too. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/132 "2006-01-28T04:00:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Shayna](#): > > > > It should be obvious to anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together that I was referring to to the specific case of bicycles legally using the roadways, as that’s what we’re discussing in this thread. > > Oh my God, you’re an idiot. How do you even get dressed in the morning? Do you have someone to tie your shoes for you? Or do you just go with velcro? You and **Roadfood** can’t even follow the flow of a conversation in an ongoing, chronological thread, and you’re calling _me_ an idiot? It’s called context. When you remove the post I was specifically addressing, as well as the sentence I typed immediately preceding the line you’re extracting, _of course_ it’s going to sound stupid – it doesn’t address anything all by itself! Here’s the whole thing, in context, with the obviously intended reference (there’s some grammatical term for it, but I can’t think of it at the moment – go ahead, call me an idiot) stuck in there for your edification. . . [ > [@Shayna](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > How many times do I need to say that I’m not talking about laws? You have every legal right to be there. I’ve said this like five times, now. **But if you’re riding your bike in such a manner that it slows down everyone else on the road, you’re being an asshole**. A perfectly legal asshole, but an asshole none the less. > > You cannot have this discussion without acknowleding – and accepting – **the legal rights of bicyclists to use the roadways**. If someone is ABIDING BY THE FUCKING LAW **[while riding their bike on the road]**, they are NOT being an asshole. Period. You can call them an asshole all you want, but that doesn’t make them an asshole. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7042814&postcount=83](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7042814&postcount=83)) And **Roadfood** might want to take note of that post, as well, seeing as how therein lies yet another example of where I said I agreed with him. > [@Shayna](#): > > Which, I remind you, has nothingwhatsofuckingever to do with the point of the Original poster, who was decrying the illegal behavior of bicyclists riding two abreast in the roadways, when there was apparently no obvious obstruction or safety reason why that would’ve been necessary (seeing as how at least one of them was safely riding along the far right), **with whom I agreed**. (bolding mine) > [@Ogre](#): > > How wonderfully Zen of you. In that spirit, my new hobby shall be strolling at a deliberately sluggish pace down the shoulder along high-traffic areas where bicyclists like to ride. I shall do so in a perfectly safe manner along the side, but I will not get out of the way of bicyclists. They will have to go around me. Traffic volume too heavy to pass? Tough shit, sister. Get off your bike and walk it for as long as I dictate the pace. I know you think you’re being cute, but this was actually covered all the way back on page 1, post #10, wherein I posted the relevant California Code that says: > [@California Vehicle Code](#): > > Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway **except**. . . > > When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, **pedestrians** , animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. So yeah, walk away (so long as it’s actually legal to do so, and you aren’t intentionally avoiding a pedestrian sidewalk, which, depending on your jurisdiction, you might be required by law to use), and we’ll move around you when it’s safe to do so. We’re as obliged by law as any other vehicle to yield the right-of-way to pedestrians. Dinner beckons, but by all means, go right on twisting your panties in a knot because you don’t understand the rules of the road and think you have full right to possess them and screw anybody else who dares to use them in an equally legal manner, if Og forbid they slow you down for 5 seconds. They’re just selfish assholes with an irritating hobby, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/133 "2006-01-28T04:09:37Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > In that spirit, my new hobby shall be strolling at a deliberately sluggish pace down the shoulder along high-traffic areas where bicyclists like to ride. I shall do so in a perfectly safe manner along the side, but I will not get out of the way of bicyclists. Such places already exist; they’re calld multi-use trails. There are a couple of them here in my town, and you’re welcome to come over and walk on them your heart’s content. I ride on them all the time (Indian Creek Trail, usually weekend mornings, if you want to block me specifically). I have no trouble slowing down for pedestrians and riding around pedestrians. I’ve never heard a fellow cyclist say pedestrians should get off the trail and use the sidewalks on nearby highways. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/134 "2006-01-28T04:26:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But still, I don’t ride bikes. I have no sense of balance and would end up squashed. You dont’t need as good a sense of balance as you might think. The angular momentum of the spinning wheels keeps you afloat. I think this is the only thing I learned from a certain physics class. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/135 "2006-01-28T04:38:23Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Such places already exist; they’re calld multi-use trails. There are a couple of them here in my town, and you’re welcome to come over and walk on them your heart’s content. I ride on them all the time (Indian Creek Trail, usually weekend mornings, if you want to block me specifically). I have no trouble slowing down for pedestrians and riding around pedestrians. I’ve never heard a fellow cyclist say pedestrians should get off the trail and use the sidewalks on nearby highways. That’s probably because Indian Creek Trail has nothing even close to the volume of traffic or the safety hazards that an average 35-45 mph roadway has. My stroll along Indian Creek Trail does not compromise the safety of myself and other people. (And I’ve been there. I’ve even ridden it.) > [@](#): > > We’re as obliged by law as any other vehicle to yield the right-of-way to pedestrians. And yet, how many times have I heard “Out of the way!” from a bicyclist coming up behind me? Lots. Next time, I’ll just spit. And as for the California vehicle code, yeah, I understand that it’s legal for bikers to be on the road with cars moving at high speed. I’m arguing that it should not be legal. It creates unnecessary safety hazards and delays by forcing automobiles to slow down/avoid them. I understand the rules of the road. I just think they’re stupid. > [@](#): > > I assume then that you never create traffic for recreatonal purposes. Yeah, right. Immaterial. My use of the road in an automobile is at the same speed as the rest of the traffic. My mere presence does not cause an undue safety hazard. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/136 "2006-01-28T04:44:21Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > That does sound inequitable when you paint it broadly like that but it kind of happens anyway. I pay less tax on my property because it is in a lowsocioeconomic area and the council will not put gas lines down my road, whereas they will in richer areas. Ditto schools other facilities. But do you think this is a good thing? Do you support it or is it something you don’t like? > [@](#): > > Hey, you haven’t read the whole thread- I was initially responding to a post that said that bikers paid taxes too. Sure. And they do. And whether they pay more or less tax than motorists alongside them depends on a whole load of factors not relevant to whether they are a biker or a motorist. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/137 "2006-01-28T04:49:30Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Immaterial. My use of the road in an automobile is at the same speed as the rest of the traffic. Not immaterial. Your vehicle creates traffic. Collectively, traffic slows down use of the roads. If every recreational motorist stopped driving and every motorist only used their car when essential, roads would move more quickly. Basically, as others would have it, using crowded roads for recreational use is simply rude. Just ask Miller, he agrees, doncha Miller? 😉 As to safety, no one on your side of the debate has commented upon let alone rebutted my comments about the type of nonsensical twaddle you are peddling here. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/138 "2006-01-28T04:51:52Z")
To the anti-bike crowd: can you cite even one example where a cyclist, riding on the road legally, caused harm to others? Because that seems to be what you’re claiming, without any cites. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/139 "2006-01-28T04:53:50Z")
> [@Jamaika a jamaikaiaké](#): > > You dont’t need as good a sense of balance as you might think. The angular momentum of the spinning wheels keeps you afloat. I think this is the only thing I learned from a certain physics class. 🙂 This particular suggestion was rebutted in controlled experiments in the early seventies. Unfortunately, the idea that angular momentum is what makes bikes stable is such a cool meme to physics teachers and nerds[sup]\*[/sup] that it propagates vociferously despite being wrong. Google it. The concept you are looking for is “steering trail”. (\*I include myself in that term, I don’t intend it as an insult) ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790/140 "2006-01-28T04:58:39Z")
I don’t want to add any more fuel to the fire, but there were two things addressed to me specifically a while back, so: > [@Uzi](#): > > Is this person speeding by doing 40mph? Or, is this the average speed on this road? If it is the average speed, can you keep up to that speed on your bike? If not why are you on that road in the first place? Yes, I know you may have the legal right to be there, but it doesn’t mean you have to be. > I’ve always thought that bicycles should only be allowed on residential streets with posted speeds of 30mph (50km) or less, or on roads with an actual bicycle lane. Otherwise they pose a danger to themselves, and worse, a danger to others. If I only ride on residential roads, then I cannot get to very many places. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, then maybe you should get a car. I understand that biking to work is easier/healthier/cheaper/funner than driving for you, but if you can’t do that without inconvenencing everyone else on the road, you’re just being selfish. You’re operating a vehicle on a public road: you have a responsibility to be considerate to everyone else on that road, just as they have a responsibility to be considerate to you. If you’re holding up an entire lane of traffic because you like bikes more than cars, you’re showing your contempt for everyone else on the road. A number of other posters have addressed this strange view of yours, namely that all cyclists have a choice to get a car, and that their travelling isn’t necessary, while yours is, but here’s my go: I am a terrible driver. It is safer for everyone involved that I am not driving a car. It is also more than I can afford financially. I also feel that is immoral to burn gasoline unneccesarily. (I don’t mean this judgementally, I just mean as a personal decision.) Ergo, I don’t feel getting a car is a viable option. I think it is neccesary for me to travel out of my residential neighborhood (3 short streets), as do you think it is neccesary for you to do the same. Why do you assume my travel is for a different purpose than yours, just because I am on a bike? I even go grocery shopping on my bike (front basket + backpack). I’m allowed to eat, right? I guess you can assume I’m not going to a furniture store on my bike… Upon preview, I guess I learned nothing from that particular physics class 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/share-the-road-works-both-ways/341790.md?page=8)