Share true trivia you find interesting about famous people of your choosing

That’s because it was rushed. He’d had advance after advance and grant after grant to finish it but kept delaying it, and finally his publishers said “Get it to us on X date or give us back the money… we mean it!” That’s why Kunta Kinte’s story lasts several hundred pages, Kizzy’s a couple of hundred, Chicken George a good while, and then everything from Civil War to Alex lasts about 30 pages.

As for the lawsuits and all… let’s see, how to tread lightly on a sensitive topic---- Alex Haley wasn’t a good researcher and he wasn’t above making the research fit his conclusion. There’s a LOT of problems with ROOTS.

In his defense, he never claimed that it was a work of non-fiction altogether. Basically, he got his family’s pedigree and wrote a novel that placed in the family stories he’d heard and used the family tree and used fiction to flesh out the characters. Absolutely no problem with that, especially since there was the disclaimer (I think he may actually have coined the word “faction”).

However, much of his research doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. For example, there’s no way the slave Toby at the Waller Plantation in Virginia- whose records he appended to his African ancestor- could have been the one who came over on the Lord Ligonier that he identified as the slave ship. The LL came over in 1765, the slave was here in the 1750s, and he died before Kizzy (identified as Toby/Kunta Kinte’s daughter in the book) was ever conceived.
Likewise, the one thing in the photocopy of the mimeograph pamphlet from the Lea family that does make a good point is that plantation records show that Kizzy had many children and some were born before Lea owned her (in the novel Kizzy is sold away for helping a slave escape when she’s about 15; in reality she was [this is from later research and not the photocopied mimeographed typed pamphlet] probably a bequest or debt payment [the Leas and the Wallers were related] and her children came with her, so at least some of them weren’t her master’s [not Lea anyway]).
Anyway, there’s lots of little stuff, but as said- it’s a novel, and Haley never claimed it wasn’t. It could be argued that he should have made explicit what was handed down in the family or backed by record from what was strictly his own invention (i.e. Kizzy’s participation in the Underground Railroad), but, c’est la vie.

More damning were the accusations of deliberately altering research and plagiarism, and he was sued for the both the historical research components and the literary components. A professor of African culture sued him for using- verbatim- the professor’s writings in describing Gambia and Mandinka society- this one was settled out of court. The big one was the Harold Courlander suit, who claimed that Haley had essentially lifted the story of Kunta Kinte from Courlander’s novel The African- and the judge evidently agreed. On the eve of the verdict it was settled out of court for $650,000 and admission of “unintentional” plagiarism.
The griot that Haley connected the stories with- “he went into the jungle to cut a log for a drum and was never seen again” of the griot + “and he came here cause he was cutting himself a log for a drum and the slavers cotched him” of his aunts- there’s a big controversy over this. Some say that Haley willfully distorted the griot’s story, others that he was duped by the griot who knew what Haley was searching for and wanted publicity for the village of Juffureh and added this, some say the incident simply never happened. I would LOVE to know that it did happen exactly as described- it’s just so powerful- but we’ll probably never know for certain.
There are allegations the book had a lot of “doctors” who fixed up Haley’s not great manuscript. This may not be true but it’s probably based in fact- you can actually tell in reading the book when the “voice” changes- this section just does not read like it’s from the same writer who wrote that one.
A bizarre but verified factoid: when Haley was in development of the miniseries (and this comes straight from David Wolper, the producer, and is on the ROOTS commentary on DVD) he specifically state that he wanted no black screenwriters to work on the project. His justification was that they would want to add their own agenda and he was afraid they’d try to make all black characters too saintly and all whites too evil.

Anyway, Wiki has a good synopsis of his plagiarism trials and other allegations. For that matter the re-release of the book actually addresses them in a lengthy new preface.

It’s one of those things that I almost hate to mention, because warts and all ROOTS was a very important book and really did have just a tremendous impact on American culture (not just black either- you can see a real renaissance in genealogy, public history, and other great “awarenesses” spring from this time). The other thing I hate about bringing it up is that,as you might imagine, several white supremacists who’ve probably never read any book longer than a Chick pamphlet have nevertheless had a field day with this (that’s the danger of googling- you come across a lot of “ROOTS WAS ALL LIES” sites that are Aryan connected- cause as we all know those Aryan Nations types take factual documentation and literary integrity seriously- that’s why you’ll never see James Frey as their keynote speaker.) Plus, all memoirists embellish- and all have been called on it: David Sedaris (some anal critic wrote an essay for Salon “exposing” Sedaris’s works as embroidered and embellished and fictionalized and then became absolutely furious and wrote a follow up when 99.999999% of the mail he received was ‘of course he does you numbskull!’- the other .0000001% was misaddressed), Augusten Burroughs (sued- settled out of court), Dave Eggers (his sister was livid over the book- with reason it seems- also committed suicide, not that there’s necessarily a connection), etc., so it’s hardly surprising Haley, who wasn’t exactly a memoirist but was self-referential and who wrote the bestselling book anybody ever wrote on their family, gets more criticism than the others. As for the the research and plagiarism- well, somehow the white supremacists found Haley’s flaws and MLK’s yet overlooked Stephen Ambrose, Doris Kearns Godwin, Joseph Ellis and other “biggies” in the field of history who are far more trained than Haley was as historical researchers yet were sued successfully for plagiarism (which I’m certainly not exonerating, just saying that it’s not like ‘white’ respected authors haven’t been just as guilty.) I don’t recall having heard any scandals associated with David McCullough- probably means one day we’ll learn he was an al-Quaeda operative

And as a novel- divorcing any claims of factuality, it works. Up until 1860 anyway- after that, like you said, waaaay too rushed. (Also, a lot of the stuff from the miniseries wasn’t in the book- it was padded to add drama [the extramarital affair of the Reynolds family, Kizzy’s return to her father’s grave, Tom’s problems with the KKK, etc.]).

I do hope that another black author would come along and write a really REALLY great successor to it that’s free of scandal, though, fact or fiction or blend so long as its properly labeled. Til then, ROOTS is way too important to ever let it go out of print again imo (it was out of print for several years, though largely due to estate squabbles by Haley’s heirs).

I’m sorry what was the question? I seem to have digressed…

Lauren Bacall (born Betty Joan Perske) is the first cousin of Israeli politician Shimon Peres (the highlighted surnames are different languages’ forms of the same name, akin to “Grunfeld” and “Greenfield”).

Recently learned in another thread on this board: Anna Leonowens, the “I” of The King and I, was the great-aunt of one William Henry Pratt, who became famous after changing his name to Boris Karloff.

While he was a student at Johns Hopkins University, my maternal grandfather occupied the room that had served several years earlier as the temporary academic residence of Red Scare figure Alger Hiss. Grandpa was thus interrogated during the investigation of Hiss, whose innocence he believed in until (as far as I know) his dying day.

Cool- I’d never heard that.

Speaking of Israeli politicians, Golde Meir was a public librarian in Milwaukee before emigrating to Israel. (I pity people who didn’t shut up when she told them too or brought their books back damaged.)

Our country was named after a guy who was cousins by marriage to the girl who posed for the “Birth of Venus” painting.

Amerigo Vespucci
Simonetta Vespucci

True and weird trivia about one of the first famous people in American history:

Pocahontas (real name Matoaka [pron. roughly Matt-oh-AH-kay]) was one of at least 27 known children of Chief Powhatan (actual name Wahunsunacock, but called Powhatan here because I can remember how to spell it). It wasn’t unusual for chiefs in certain tribes to practice polygamy and have many many children (in fact King Charles II and King Louis XIV in the old world had almost that many when you count in bastards) but there was something unusual in the family besides that.

Powhatan was a brilliant leader- both a warlord and diplomat- who was something like a Napoleon of American Indians. He inherited leadership of a few villages from his father (or uncle or whoever preceded him- like Olde England and like modern Arabia succession was less primogeniture and more agnatic) but through diplomacy and military viciousness (probably more the latter than the former) he became a near emperor, conquering some villages and convincing others to join with him and making alliances until he had a territory that stretched from the Carolinas up to New Jersey (not all of what’s now those states, but bits and pieces). He frequently made alliances by taking wives and concubines from his conquered or joined towns- this is also not unusual in polygamous cultures.

Here’s what’s unusual: once he got them pregnant he gave away his wives and concubines to his nobles and other chiefs. The theory was evidently that “if you take my pregnant wife and you raise my child then you and I are connected as blood and we are like family”, plus since Powhatan was from village W and concubine was from village Y and she’s given to village Z and her sister is the medicine woman fo village X, it further spread and fostered alliances.

He apparently didn’t give away all of his pregnant wives. For example, he seems to have actually been father in rearing and in biology to Pocahontas and several of her brothers. OTOH, it has been theorized by suggestions that Pocahontas may not have been his biological daughter- perhaps he took her mother (about whom nothing, not even her name, is known) when she was pregnant by another chief. Whatever the deal, he definitely regarded her as his daughter and seemingly as his favorite.

So, the English were shocked at this custom and asked questions of it. It seemed barbaric to them to give away a pregnant wife, no matter what the reason. What shocked them more was when interviewing the Indians in order to understand more of their culture (for their own best interest obviously, but probably also from fascination) was that the Indians were just as shocked by it as the English were! Evidently this was not a routine custom among the Algonquins but something that Powhatan himself brought to the party, and even other members of his (extended family of) tribes thought it was peculiar! But, they went along with it- in the first place he seems to have been a great leader and in the second, great or not he was one mean S.O.B. when you riled him. It’s absolutely amazing he didn’t wipe the floor with Jamestown and its satellites (though his brother certainly tried later on), but he had his reasons (fairly complex ones, but for that you can read the books).

More trivia about Pocahontas:

Often when you read “cherished tales of American History” it’s disappointing. It can be upsetting to find out that Abraham Lincoln really wasn’t a white knight on a noble steed but a deeply troubled and tortured man who was actually despised by millions of Americans outside the south and who bent the Bill of Rights out of shape (not arguing its sometime necessity) and was a shrewd politician, or that Thanksgiving wasn’t quite how it’s depicted in the books and most of the Indians showed up uninvited (and later the descendants of the Pilgrims would slaughter the descendants of the Indians), or that however incompetent and awful a man Santa Anna was the men at the Alamo were pretty clearly in the wrong and in fact slavery was one of the big things they were fighting for, or even just finding out simple things like the Chicago Fire probably didn’t start with Mrs. O’Leary’s cow knocking over a lantern. You begin to thing there is nothing in popular consciousness that’s actually true or at all likeable about our founders.

One thing that is true though:

Most people know that Pocahontas wasn’t really involved romantically with John Smith (they did genuinely love each other, but not necessarily romantically and certainly they were never betrothed or anything like). Many may even know that she married John Rolfe and that this alliance saved Jamestown and its dependancies, that it was a political marriage.

It’s refreshing to read the primary sources and find out that- almost shocking when you see so many other sacred cows barbecued- while John Rolfe knew his marriage to Pocahontas would be of tremendous benefit to the colony, the main reason he married was because… gasp… he actually loved her. In fact, he may have been far more in love with her than she was with him, though certainly she seems to have been happy with him by the end of their short marriage.

The ways we know he loved her:

Because she was an Indian, even though she was Christian (long story about why she converted, but short reason is she was really really really pissed off at her father and brothers for not ransoming her) he had to ask permission of the Virginia Company and the Church of England to marry her. In the letters he explained all of the benefits marriage to her would bring the colonists— but also said he loved her. More proof though is that when she accompanied him to England (where it’s not known that she was ever formally presented at court, incidentally, though she did attend a ball [it was not in her honor] and was feted by other nobles) the court wags and gossips actually joked and mocked Rolfe, wondering how on Earth any man could be so devoted and so continually affectionate and downright un-Englismanlike in his lubby-dubbiness to such an ugly woman (for by Euro standards Pocahontas was not pretty- the most famous portraits of her were actually doctored from the one known likeness of her done from life (this) to give her more Anglo features (this).
Sadly of course she died of Old World diseases (probably caught from living too close to the docks)- that part is true. However- perhaps it’s my soft if ample underbelly- but I find it somehow reassuring that this much is true from romanticized history books: Rolfe actually loved her.
On an interesting sidenote, when her son Thomas returned to America (he grew up in England) and became one of the richest planters due to inheritance from his father and from his grandpa Powhatan, he had to receive special dispensation to marry a white woman.

Vonnegut 's great-grandfather, Clemens Vonnegut, invented the modern ‘panic bar’ common on exits today. He was inspired after the Iroquois Theater fire in Chicago in 1903.

I love revisionist history.

Sampiro, you are way off base on this. The entire Texas Revolution came about because the people living in Texas wanted two things:

  1. To be split out of the state of Coahuila y Tejas
  2. Stopping the centralization of the Mexican government and returning to the Mexican Constitution of 1824. That constitution did not support slavery.

And yet more Pocahontas trivia:

Pocahontas had one son, who had only one daughter, who had only one son. That great-grandson (John Bolling) however had a very large family so she has a good many descendants. This is about two of them:

Edith Bolling Galt was a Virginia girl who was a 40-something wealthy widow in World War I era D.C… (The wealthy part was largely through her own efforts; she inherited her husband’s gemstone brokerage when he died and took over its management, doing very well and making it more profitable than he had before turning it over to another manager when she began “courting” again). She married the recently widowed Woodrow Wilson in a semi-scandalous 1915 wedding (about a year and a half after Mrs. Wilson 1’s death), leading to the joke “Did you hear that the President asked Mrs. Galt to marry him? She was so shocked she fell out of bed!”
In a very famous series of events that followed, Wilson had a massive paralytic stroke in 1919 that left him largely unfit for duty. At the same time his VP had very different ideas about post-War Europe, so to assure her husband’s legacy Edith was very much the power behind the throne. “Give me the papers… I’ll take them to the president and he’ll sign them… he’s had a stroke so his signature might look a bit different nudge nudge wink wink… oh, he made some corrections”.
What I find ironic about this: for the year and a half that she was in charge (even if not officially- in fact she couldn’t even vote), once again the House of Wahunsunacock was the most powerful force in North America- and not terribly far away from her ancestor’s capitol at Werowocomoco (about 140 miles).

Wayne Newton, who is about half Cherokee, has always been a huge advocate of American Indian rights. (Who he’s not a huge advocate of is Johnny Carson, who made one too many gay cracks about him- but that’s beside the point.) Recognizing Pocahontas as perhaps the best known of all native Americans and something like a queen, he wanted to bring back her body from England and ensconce her in an appropriate tomb (that he would pay for) in her native coastal Virginia. Because her burial place is unknown (very likely to have been a mass grave even) he hired a team of historians and archaeologists to “go looking for her”.
As of yet they have not located the exact spot of her burial. What they did find out though was interesting: Wayne Newton grew up in Virginia and knew of his Cherokee ancestry, but didn’t know until the research that he’s a direct descendant of Pocahontas (through one of the “Red Bollings”, not through his Cherokee ancestry- she was not Cherokee). It’s made the mission more special to him, so here’s wishing him luck.

I’m about to be “uncomputerized” for a while, but I’ll research to find out why I thought this. I promise if I find I’m wrong I’ll say so- just posting here now so it won’t look like I’m ignoring it. (And whether I’m right or you are, you can’t deny the Alamo was hell on the raccoons who made the hats.)

Sampiro, thanks for the Roots hijack. I am amazed not only at your breadth of knowledge, but how interesting you lay out the facts.

Laurence Olivier was highly distraught at Vivien Leigh’s death. He loved her to distraction, but her bipolar disorder (treated at the time with electric shock therapy) made her impossible to live with.

So did Jimmy Stewart and Henry Fonda, back in about 1932 when neither of them could get arrested. Whenever there was enough money or food, they would have all their friends by to eat. One of them was a saxophone and clarinet player who couldn’t get work because band leaders thought he was too difficult. His name: Benny Goodman.

Okey-dokey, I won’t say you’re wrong, for it’s a complex issue, but I will say that there are scholars who agree with my statement that the war was largely about slavery and it was the opinion of John Quincy Adams and other notables at the time.

Below is an except from a U.S. News & World Report article entitled ‘Misrembering the Alamo’. The author is Justin Ewers, a staff-writer and journalist (i.e. not necessarily an Alamo expert), but he quotes several historians in the article.

OTOH, the Davis book he mentions was, to put it charitably, not positively received by historians . (The JQA quote is a matter of Congressional record.)

Feel free to respond in this thread- I think it’s an interesting topic and I’d always rather be proven wrong in history than go on believing misinformation. If it gets much traction it might be better to take it to Great Debates.

Before he had the diabetes, Wilford Brimley used to be a bodyguard for Howard Hughes.

Maybe everybody knows that.

Abraham Lincoln meets Hollywood trivia:

As he has no descendants (3 sons died without issue- Robert had children and grandchildren but the line ended with the death of Lincoln’s great grandchildren in the 1980s) and as his siblings had no descendants, among Lincoln’s closest living relatives are Tom Hanks (a descendant of his mother Nancy’s uncle) and the children of Bill Cosby. (Cosby’s wife, Camille, is the granddaughter of an early interracial marriage and her grandfather was a member of the same Hanks family.)

The following is not to be taken as fact, but is mentioned as a matter of interest and speculation. My mother had the theory that Jefferson Davis was Abraham Lincoln’s uncle; tried to write a novel about it but just didn’t think it was interesting enough. Her reason for believing this was what she saw as a Davis and Lincoln, the fact that Lincoln’s mother was illegitimate and her father is unknown, and in one source she read Nancy’s mother was born at the same place that Jefferson Davis’s father was then living- though I don’t remember where that was and it doesn’t particularly matter as I’ve researched the matter since then and there are about 10 known birthplaces for Nancy Hanks (her mom had a walking labor). Really, the Hanks family was just too obscure to really trace and they’re not quite sure where she was born- it’s been placed in Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky and elsewhere.
There were rumors in Abe’s lifetime that he himself was the illegitimate son of John C. Calhoun though then as now few took them seriously. It was an attempt to give an obscure person the “right” (or, if you were his opponent, the “wrong”) parentage -not unlike tales from ancient legends e.g. Oedipus, Moses, Paris- who were abandoned at birth, raised by others, and then their true parentage revealed with an “aha… now* that *makes sense”- but was more likely trying to make the story more dramatic and make a connection where there really wasn’t one (easier to say it was really a Hebrew who liberated the Hebrews than an Egyptian leader, or that it was really the rightful king who killed Laius and took his wife and not some random illegal alien motherfucker). Anyway, the “evidence” of the illegitimacy of Lincoln himself is that his father Tom came up with money to buy a farm and cabin (about the size of a British phone booth at a time when land was cheap)- again, nobody really takes the stories seriously. (I wonder if there’s every been an attempt to say Davis and Lincoln were half-brothers- if not they missed some good spin, and while at it make him Muslim too.)

Trivia about Jefferson Davis: he was a very complex man. EVEN BY THE STANDARDS OF 1861 he was considered a fanatic on the subject of white supremacy and the near divine ordination and right of slavery. (Even his wife said he was an arrogant man who was always convinced of his own complete rectitude, saying something to the effect in one of her letters that “his opinion will occasionally change, but never the fact that he was right all along, thus unalterable fact changes with his opinion”.)
At the same time though that he was making speeches dehumanizing blacks and calling for their eternal slavery as a kindness (and again, even by 1861 standards he was radical) he was breaking the law on his plantation in Mississippi (Briarfield) by building a school and teaching slave children to read. This was an offense that was punishable by DEATH in some places (and in fact we know that it was enforced a few times for the slaves themselves. (One of Thomas Jefferson’s slaves sold at the “everything and everyone [but Sally and her boys] must go” sale after Jefferson’s death recalled knowing that he truly wasn’t at Monticello anymore when the new master said “If I ever see one of you reading a book the first time I’ll give you 40 lashes and rub salt in the wounds. If I see you read a book after that I will kill you on the spot”.)
Davis also sold his beloved Briarfield to a former slave. A part of the plantation was split off and became the town of Mound Bayou, Mississippi (the rest was eventually foreclosed on due to years of crop failures). Mound Bayou, MS, formerly the plantation of Jefferson Davis, remained one of the most progressive towns in the south in terms of race. (Medgar Evers actually moved there because as an intelligent black man in 1950s Mississippi it was one of the few places he could live a middle class lifestyle.)
When Davis’s son, Jefferson Jr., died (on the eve of his wedding of malaria at age 21) he called for two people on his deathbed. One was his mother, the other was “Uncle Ben”, the slave who had bought the plantation. Both came. (His parents were separated at the time, incidentally; many believe that Davis was having an affair with the woman who sold- then gave- him Beauvoir.)
Another oddity about the slaves of this man is that many of them continued to write to Mrs. Davis for the rest of her life. She died in New York City in 1906, and received letters from her former slaves- all of them friendly (and remember, these people had been writing since before the Civil War) until that time. (Some letter of condolence to Mrs. Davis from a former slave after her husband’s death- 1894 ).

I say this not to impart what a nice guy Jefferson Davis was- in the first place he wasn’t and in the second place I can’t stand him (I blame him for most of the carnage of the Civil War) or to show how liberal he was (again, even by the standards of the day he wasn’t) but to show just how complex race relations in and after slavery are down here. Again- it’s never been remotely an easy issue.

And because it’s interesting.

And incidentally Davis’s slave above was called Uncle Ben by the Davis children and by the community. There was a song about him and even some books about “Uncle Ben” that took their name from him (basically a bargain basement knockoff of the Uncle Remus tales) and Mound Bayou/the Davis plantation grew rice as one of its major crops. I have no idea if UNCLE BEN’S RICE is named for him- certainly it’s not directly- but wouldn’t be surprised if indirectly it is.

And that’s how Ol’ Cap’n Catfish got his anal glands back from the devil. Come back for another story tomorrow children…

Speaking of Jefferson Davis, his only legitimate descendants settled here. His daughter Margaret married Joel Addison Hayes, Jr. and they moved to Colorado Springs sometime in the 1880s. Hayes founded the First National Bank here and when their son Jefferson Hayes-Davis (the parents hyphenated the Davis name onto their son’s name when the kid was eight years old to keep the family name from dying out) was VP of his dad’s bank in the early 1950’s, his secretary was Louanne Van Pelt, upon whom Charles Schultz modeled the character of Lucy in the Peanuts strip.

Singer Judy Collins’s godfather Holden Bowler served on a ship in WW2 with writer J D Salinger, and was the model for his namesake Holden Caufield of Catcher in the Rye.

Former “Doctor Who” actress Lalla Ward, who was briefly married to Tom Baker, the best-known actor to play the titular role, is married to Richard Dawkins. They were introduced by Douglas Adams, who knew her when he was a writer on the show.

If you pronounce it that way people will know you’re not from around here (and didn’t go to Matoaca High School).

Ma-TOE-ah-ka is the pronunciation used by the Native Americans here in the Richmond area (which is where the dear girl was from).

Financial talk show host Suze Orman once shared an apartment with John Belushi. Belushi was dating Orman’s roommate and would occasionally stay in her apartment.

Actor Charles Durning was one of the survivors of the Malmedy Massacre during the WWII Battle of the Bulge.