# Sharia Law in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699 "2008-02-07T18:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/1 "2008-02-07T18:14:19Z")
The Archbishop of Canterbury,Dr Rowland Williams, says that some Sharia law should be adopted in the UK because some citizens do not relate to the British legal system. Well fuck you doc and fuck those who don’t relate to the system of the country they are resident in. This gormless twat is the leader of the Church of England and he comes out with statements like that. What? he wants to see public floggings/stonings/hangings/beheadings?..the man is a fucking nutcase and if he don’t like our laws then let him piss off to a Muslim country. The mind truly boggles ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/2 "2008-02-07T18:18:42Z")
How much political power does he have? Will the members of Parliament nod wisely and rush off to draft the law, or is it more of a “Oh, there goes Rowland again…how droll.” ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/3 "2008-02-07T18:19:16Z")
No power whatsoever ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/4 "2008-02-07T18:26:02Z")
This is the same guy who thinks that if the bars close earlier, it will make the streets safe again, and is calling on people to give up carbon emissions for Lent. OTOH, he has spoken out in favor of dumping Britain’s antiquated blasphemy law, so maybe he’s not a gormless twat–he’s just from another planet, the one called There Will Always Be An England? And, er, teensy nitpick: It’s “Rowan”. As in Atkinson, only not _nearly_ as entertaining… ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/5 "2008-02-07T18:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] And, er, teensy nitpick: It’s “Rowan”. As in Atkinson, only not _nearly_ as entertaining… [/QUOTE] Oh I don’t know, he’s pretty fucking hilarious And there will always be an England ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/6 "2008-02-07T18:31:12Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What? he wants to see public floggings/stonings/hangings/beheadings?..the man is a fucking nutcase and if he don’t like our laws then let him piss off to a Muslim country. [/QUOTE] Yes, I’m sure that when he said “some” elements of Sharia, those are precisely the elements to which he referred. That’s a reasonable and entirely logical assumption. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/7 "2008-02-07T18:33:23Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yes, I’m sure that when he said “some” elements of Sharia, those are precisely the elements to which he referred. That’s a reasonable and entirely logical assumption. [/QUOTE] Well considering that he never mentioned which elements what would you have me assume? Also, please notice my question marks. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/8 "2008-02-07T18:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yes, I’m sure that when he said “some” elements of Sharia, those are precisely the elements to which he referred. That’s a reasonable and entirely logical assumption. [/QUOTE] The point being of course that there shouldn’t be “Any” elements of Sharia Law adopted by Britain if the people/government don’t want it, particularly if this is some kind of a pandering move to appease Muslims. If you want to live in country A and are from Country B, you have no right whatsoever to expect Country A to conform itself in any way to be more “Country B-ish” to please you or a vocal minority of people like you. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/9 "2008-02-07T18:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Well considering that he never mentioned which elements what would you have me assume? [/QUOTE] > [@The Archbishop](#): > > it would be quite wrong to say that we could ever license a system of law for some community which gave people no right of appeal, no way of exercising the rights that are guaranteed to them as citizens in general. > > "But there are ways of looking at marital disputes, for example, which provide an alternative to the divorce courts as we understand them. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/07/nwilliams107.xml](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/07/nwilliams107.xml) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/10 "2008-02-07T18:58:24Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] If you want to live in country A and are from Country B, you have no right whatsoever to expect Country A to conform itself in any way to be more “Country B-ish” to please you or a vocal minority of people like you. [/QUOTE] Sure you do, if what you want it to be is more morally correct. Which Sharia law isn’t. But as much as I believe that those advocating hardline Sharia law do not deserve to live, advocating it seems logical to me from their perspective. But not coming from a CoE official! ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/11 "2008-02-07T18:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] And there will always be an England [/QUOTE] What’s that old saying, the crescent moon never sets over the British Empire? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/12 "2008-02-07T18:59:53Z")
Sounds a bit like the [London Beth Din](http://www.theus.org.uk/the_united_synagogue/the_london_beth_din/about_us/) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/13 "2008-02-07T19:01:03Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] But as much as I believe that those advocating hardline Sharia law do not deserve to live [/QUOTE] You really mean this about advocates of Sharia divorce systems? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/14 "2008-02-07T19:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > “But there are ways of looking at marital disputes, for example, which provide an alternative to the divorce courts as we understand them.” Yes, like divorcing your wife by simply saying “I divorce you” three times! Or heck, forget divorce, just put your unfaithful wife to death! Quicker and cleaner than that western bullshit, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/15 "2008-02-07T19:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] Yes, like divorcing your wife by simply saying “I divorce you” three times! Or heck, forget divorce, just put your unfaithful wife to death! Quicker and cleaner than that western bullshit, obviously. [/QUOTE] What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Are we talking about Sharia here, or any convenient Islamophobic stereotype which we wish to fling into the discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/16 "2008-02-07T19:12:22Z")
I knew this was going to spawn a rant, and I even guessed which poster. And lo! here he is. On form, as well: > [@chowder](#): > > Well considering that he never mentioned which elements what would you have me assume? We’d have you inform yourself before assuming, like an absolute idiot, that the Archbishop of motherfucking Canterbury endorses public stonings. Because he plainly doesn’t. I realise this is going to take a lot of the fun out of your rant, but them’s the breaks when you live in the real world. Moving back from bizarro-land, let’s look at what he _actually_ said, shall we? In fact, let’s just check what he _didn’t_ say first. > [@Dr Williams](#): > > “Nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that’s sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well.” Good, I’m glad we’ve got that established; the man has explicitly denied what you insist on assuming. This shows rather neatly that you didn’t read past the headline of the Evening Standard before spaffing off your OP, but we’ll gloss over that, shall we? Aren’t we kind. So what _did_ he say? Well, [here’s](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/07_02_08_islam.pdf) the full text (warning: PDF). I’m not going to quote at length (not least because it’ll be completely wasted on the OP), but the gist is this: Dr Williams believes that an _optional_ increased judicial standing for _some_ areas of religious (not just Islamic) law might (might!) be beneficial in terms of societal cohesion; i.e. that rather than treating religious strictures as a complete irrelevance, it might help if the law recognised that some people might choose to adhere to them, and might benefit from their having legal standing. Scholar that he is, he thoughtfully identifies several major problems with this: [ul][li]Vexatious appeals to scruple - he wants no more than anyone to see trifling and unsubstantiated religious objections bothering the secular (he gives the example of a Muslim woman working at M&S who reportedly refused to handle a book of Bible stories).[/li][li]The reinforcement of repressive traditions - how truly “voluntary” could a Sharia family court be in the face of patriarchal tradition?[/li][li]The implications of compromising the idea of judicial monopoly - given that many of our most important societal norms are based on the idea of equality before the law, what implications do “supplementary jurisdictions” have for our broader society and the assumptions on which it’s based?[/ul][/li]Again, being a thoughtful man he offers no easy answers, nor does he draw any binding conclusions. He makes some very interesting points about our current notion of a “human right”, noting that there seems to be an implicit assumption that having been blessed with these things, it’s our duty to exercise them at all times. He asks whether people might want to subsume certain rights to a religious belief, and whether it’s our responsibility to save themselves from their own choice. What he pointedly does not say at any point is that there should be stonings and executions for apostasy. Because he’s not an idiot. Anyway. Hopefully this illustrates how a nuanced and thoughtful speech by a clever and well-meaning man has been utterly mangled by a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/17 "2008-02-07T19:12:31Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Well considering that he never mentioned which elements what would you have me assume? Also, please notice my question marks. [/QUOTE] So you were really, genuinely unsure if the Archbishop of Canterbury was advocating the legalization of public stoning for violations of the Koran? Serious question: with your obvious lack of higher brain functions, how did you even learn human speech? > [@FoieGraeisEvil](#): > > The point being of course that there shouldn’t be “Any” elements of Sharia Law adopted by Britain if the people/government don’t want it, particularly if this is some kind of a pandering move to appease Muslims. Obviously, _some_ of the people in the UK want it, else it wouldn’t be an issue in the first place. Most of those people are obviously going to be Muslims, but last I checked, one could be a Muslim and be a citizen of the United Kingdoms at the same time. And seeing as they’ve got democracy in the UK, they’ve got as much right to be pandered to as any other segment of the electorate. Now, from what I’ve seen, the Sharia law being talked about is limited to the settlment of purely domestic disputes, such as divorce. I don’t see anything terribly objectionable in this. I don’t actually know how Sharia divorce law would differ from the regular divorce law they have over there. I’d suspect it would be less favorable to the woman, but if both parties want to use it to arbitrate their divorce, I really don’t see how it’s anyone else’s business. That said, I’m sure there are some good arguments against this. But, “Are they going to start cutting off people’s heads in Trafalgar Square?” isn’t one of them. It is, in fact, a hilariously stupid argument against it. > [@](#): > > If you want to live in country A and are from Country B, you have no right whatsoever to expect Country A to conform itself in any way to be more “Country B-ish” to please you or a vocal minority of people like you. What if you’re part of a vocal minority who was born in country A? Do they have any right to participate in the democratic process of their nation? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/18 "2008-02-07T19:30:04Z")
Well colour me English but in my country we have OUR fucking laws. If you don’t like 'em then you can fuck off back whence you came. As for **Dead Badger/Miller** I don’t particularly give a monkeys foreskin what you think of me, no really I don’t I am heartily sick of pandering to the frigging Muslims ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/19 "2008-02-07T19:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Well colour me English but in my country we have OUR fucking laws. If you don’t like 'em then you can fuck off back whence you came. [/QUOTE] Yes, because as **Miller** points out, it’s impossible for a Muslim to have been born in Britain. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699/20 "2008-02-07T19:34:39Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] But, “Are they going to start cutting off people’s heads in Trafalgar Square?” isn’t one of them. It is, in fact, a hilariously stupid argument against it. [/QUOTE] Right now, yes. But there are enough hard-liners in England that would be willing to push for more that the slippery slope cannot be discounted. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sharia-law-in-the-uk/436699.md?page=2)