# Shawshank Redemption Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559 "2012-03-22T23:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/1 "2012-03-22T23:58:37Z")
There is a scene in the library with Red and Andy. Andy is explaining to Red how he is funneling the wardens ill-gotten gains into bank accounts under an assumed name. He goes on to say that it’s amazing what you can accomplish through the mail, and that the fictional account holder now had a birth certificate, drivers license and social security card. So, how did he obtain a drivers license through the mail? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/2 "2012-03-23T00:28:54Z")
Can’t say for certain, but I’ve heard that “back in the day,” a driver’s license wasn’t the photo ID we have now, but was just a wallet-sized certificate you carried with you, and that testing wasn’t required. Probably you just needed to provide some sort of proof-of-residence, maybe proof of property-taxes paid, or vehicle registration, and pay a licensing fee. And perhaps the DMV’s of the time weren’t the bureaucratic hell they can be today. I suppose it’s possible that a politely worded letter with the appropriate documents and correctly filled-out forms would suffice. Maybe some of our resident “old-timers” will drop in to confirm or deny this. ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/3 "2012-03-23T00:48:02Z")
Funny, I was just reading about this for something I’m researching. “The first driver’s licenses were issued in 1903 by Massachusetts and Missouri. These required no examinations of driving skills and were little more than identification cards. As late as the 1930s and 1940s, many states simply instructed the potential driver to pay a small fee of 25 or 50 cents in exchange for a driver’s license, which were often sent by mail.” From [here](http://www.ehow.com/about_5552087_history-drivers-license.html). ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/4 "2012-03-23T05:06:28Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Can’t say for certain, but I’ve heard that “back in the day,” a driver’s license wasn’t the photo ID we have now, but was just a wallet-sized certificate you carried with you, and that testing wasn’t required. > > Probably you just needed to provide some sort of proof-of-residence, maybe proof of property-taxes paid, or vehicle registration, and pay a licensing fee. > > And perhaps the DMV’s of the time weren’t the bureaucratic hell they can be today. I suppose it’s possible that a politely worded letter with the appropriate documents and correctly filled-out forms would suffice. > > Maybe some of our resident “old-timers” will drop in to confirm or deny this. I got my first license in 1976. You had to either take the written and driving test, or be able to show you had passed driver’s ed. But it had no picture, just a general description–height, weight, eye color, hair color, sex, and race. I would guess that the fictitious person’s license was obtained through (ahem) alternate methods, probably involving a stand in with the same general description as Andy. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/5 "2012-03-23T06:18:57Z")
> [@Anamorphic](#): > > Funny, I was just reading about this for something I’m researching. > > “The first driver’s licenses were issued in 1903 by Massachusetts and Missouri. These required no examinations of driving skills and were little more than identification cards. As late as the 1930s and 1940s, many states simply instructed the potential driver to pay a small fee of 25 or 50 cents in exchange for a driver’s license, which were often sent by mail.” > > From [here](http://www.ehow.com/about_5552087_history-drivers-license.html). I have it on [good authority](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCgrOpHcahg) that the first driver’s licenses were issued in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/6 "2012-03-23T17:09:21Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > I got my first license in 1976. You had to either take the written and driving test, or be able to show you had passed driver’s ed. But it had no picture, just a general description–height, weight, eye color, hair color, sex, and race. I would guess that the fictitious person’s license was obtained through (ahem) alternate methods, probably involving a stand in with the same general description as Andy. I believe this would be Maine in the 1960’s. Andy said everything was done “through the mail” so ot would be conceivable, using your exalmple, that he could have forged a drivers ed certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/7 "2012-03-23T17:22:58Z")
I don’t recall the application procedure, and I’m sure you had to take a driving test first, but in the 1960’s, at least one state issued cards that were straight off the computer’s dot-matrix printer. No photo, no lamination (I recall instructions at one time to “do not laminate”, presumably because it might cover up the true texture). Social Security cards were also computer printouts, and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t asked for a birth certificate when I applied for one. As far as Andy’s work, I think we can assume that at least some of those documents were forged, and with the limited cross-checking in those days, once you had one, the others would follow. And if the docs looked genuine, no bank teller would (or could) check an official database. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/8 "2012-03-23T17:33:10Z")
I assume there might be a certain amount of BSing involved as well. E.g. “I lost my license, can I get a new one, I can’t pick it up in person because of such-and-such, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/9 "2012-03-23T18:57:20Z")
While not mentioned in the movie, Andy did have a partner on the outside. One of his friends from the bank, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/10 "2012-03-23T19:06:37Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I assume there might be a certain amount of BSing involved as well. E.g. “I lost my license, can I get a new one, I can’t pick it up in person because of such-and-such, etc.” Things sure have changed. I tried to get a replacement SS card recently, and the only way it could be done was in person. If you wanted to do it by mail, you needed to send your driver’s license. Not a copy, not the number, the ACTUAL laminated-wallet-card license. Of course, they would return it, but meanwhile you would be driving without and no way to explain it to a cop except to tell him the SS office pulled rank on him. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/11 "2012-03-23T19:09:20Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > I got my first license in 1976. You had to either take the written and driving test, or be able to show you had passed driver’s ed. But it had no picture, just a general description–height, weight, eye color, hair color, sex, and race. I would guess that the fictitious person’s license was obtained through (ahem) alternate methods, probably involving a stand in with the same general description as Andy. I was guessing along the same lines. He could find someone on the outside to show up at the DMV and claim to be “Randall Stevens” and take whatever tests would be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/12 "2012-03-23T19:55:52Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I was guessing along the same lines. He could find someone on the outside to show up at the DMV and claim to be “Randall Stevens” and take whatever tests would be necessary. I think he would have to employ an accomplice. Even if he could finesse the tests, you would think physical presence would be required to verify age, height, weight and eye color. If indeed those things were indicated on a 1960’s Maine drivers license. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/13 "2012-03-23T20:03:15Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I think he would have to employ an accomplice. Even if he could finesse the tests, you would think physical presence would be required to verify age, height, weight and eye color. If indeed those things were indicated on a 1960’s Maine drivers license. Once a document is issued, it can be modified or used as a template for forging, so the accomplice wouldn’t have to match all that closely. Besides, weight and hair color can change and unless you have a scale at the teller’s window, can you tell the difference between 150 lbs and 170? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/14 "2012-03-23T20:41:18Z")
I havn’t seen the movie in some years, but doesn’t it start around 1946, right around the time Rita Hayworth’s _ **Gilda** _ came out? And since Raquel Welch, in her \*\*\*1 Million Years BC \*\*\*fur bkini, is on Andy’s cell wall at the end, he must escape around 1965 or 1966, right? I don’t know EXACTLY when he obtained the license, but it certainly COULD have been in the late Forties or early Fifties, and it might have been a lot easier back then. In those days, you might just have neeeded a flunky (like a guard) to bring a birth certificate to some local office. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/15 "2012-03-23T20:50:53Z")
I have a license that is good for 10 years. I mailed my renewal in. I look nothing like it now and have till 2017 to get it renewed. ---
**Author:** ![slitterst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecc23a/32.png) [@slitterst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slitterst)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/16 "2012-03-23T22:32:43Z")
As long as we’re asking these questions, was it really common practice for the sewage from such a business to be piped right to the nearest ditch? Or am I overthinking this? ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/17 "2012-03-23T22:40:22Z")
> [@slitterst](#): > > As long as we’re asking these questions, was it really common practice for the sewage from such a business to be piped right to the nearest ditch? That people ask questions like this these days just proves how much good the clean air & water movements of the 60s & 70s have done. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/18 "2012-03-23T23:43:34Z")
> [@slitterst](#): > > As long as we’re asking these questions, was it really common practice for the sewage from such a business to be piped right to the nearest ditch? > > Or am I overthinking this? Whippersnappers these days! Rivers used to catch on fire.:eek::eek: [Cuyahoga **River Fire** - Ohio History Central - A product of the Ohio **…**](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohiohistorycentral.org%2Fentry.php%3Frec%3D1642&ei=3wltT4GoC6mvsAKio-mCBg&usg=AFQjCNEMJrvj-kMRKUXudDFK8wg4NdzWlA&sig2=VqJi-p092Na0Qq4HE9FAPw) [Myths surrounding Cuyahoga **River fire** 35 years ago](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurekalert.org%2Fpub_releases%2F2004-06%2Fcwru-msc061704.php&ei=3wltT4GoC6mvsAKio-mCBg&usg=AFQjCNGRGigMuOOV2FSnlNPtCqkE-6k_Sw&sig2=7MFYkFtUtWeRHKCpXxfk_Q) Buffalo river and Baltimore harbor fires. Back in the 50s and 60s, I could reliably tell the time of afternoon within half hour or so by the color of the Pequabuck river back in Plainville, CT. The different machine shops up river in Forestville and Bristol dumped their wastes; we had blue, green, brown, and yellow running water. The only thing that grew or swam was some green slimy weeds and deformed frogs. Not even hidden, the pipes ran directly from the factory into the river. I was shocked, shocked I tell you, when I saw the river again in the early 90s - clear to the bottom; stones and sand visible. By the late 90s, fish had returned. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/19 "2012-03-23T23:59:21Z")
Nothing really intelligent to add, except that I love that film. Excellent cast, screenplay, etc.etc. Q ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559/20 "2012-03-24T23:17:08Z")
> [@Sister\_Vigilante](#): > > I have a license that is good for 10 years. I mailed my renewal in. I look nothing like it now and have till 2017 to get it renewed. In Arizona, driver’s licenses are good until the bearer is 65. I got mine when I moved here in 2000. It’s good until the year 2022, ten years from now, for a total of 22 years from when I received it until it expires. Just imagine how much an 18 year old would change by the time he’s 65. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shawshank-redemption-question/616559.md?page=2)