# Shayna is an intellectual coward **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556 "2008-04-01T17:52:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/161 "2008-04-04T22:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: You’re not still **here,** are you? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I think there’s a blog blasting a Republican somewhere that you haven’t linked to the rest of the message board yet–so run along, you have work to do. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/162 "2008-04-04T22:20:11Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] No, if someone else who was **a mouthpiece for the Obama campaign** had started that thread, I would have brought Obama up–period. [/quote] So what you’re saying is, no poster who is known by you to be an Obama supporter (or Clinton supporter?) will be allowed by you to start a thread about McCain without you hijacking it? That seems really ridiculous. I also think it’s against the rules of this message board, since Shayna’s thread was closed due to your hijacking. > [@](#): > > I already debated this issue, to my satisfaction, in the closed thread. By having the thread closed **Shayna** prohibited anyone who disagreed with me from having further say–and that’s fine. Have you considered that the posters in that thread (there were lots, not just Shayna) actually wanted to talk about John McCain? Not Barack Obama? Why didn’t you just Pit Shayna in the first place and not ruin the first thread for everyone else? Or Pit Obama, or Rev. Wright. But let other people discuss John McCain’s idiotic statements in a thread devoted to that topic if they want to. > [@](#): > > It was about Obama, period. No, it wasn’t. I feel like I’ve walked into The Argument Clinic. I’m picturing you as John Cleese right now. No, it wasn’t about Obama. It seriously, really, totally, absolutely wasn’t. That was all in your head. > [@](#): > > It was about Obama in the same way a negative attack ad about John McCain paid for by “Friends of Barack Obama” would be, about Obama. Specifically, about getting Obama elected, about making Obama look better by comparison. If you can’t understand this basic facet of politics, I’m sorry. Anyone who criticizes a candidate in a Pit thread probably likes another candidate better and supports the other candidate. Let me see if I can state this clearly for you: that doesn’t give you the right to hijack the thread all to hell. I wasn’t really aware that Shayna was a rabid Obama supporter. I hadn’t been reading or posting in the Pit for a while and I have a hard time keeping track of who is who anyway unless it’s a poster I have had some sort of personal interaction with. Your appearance and behavior in that thread was just a big WTF to me. > [@](#): > > Sorry, I don’t owe the OP impartiality. There were other people in that thread who wanted to talk about McCain. It’s assholish of you to derail it because you have a problem with the OP of the thread. I hope you don’t plan to do this with every anti-McCain thread, because I guarantee you that most of them will be started by pro-Obama and pro-Hillary people. Doesn’t negate their right to criticize McCain… in fact, who the hell else is going to do it? You and Shodan? > [@](#): > > If Focus on the Family paid someone to post a thread about something in the pit, do you genuinely think everyone would act impartial and treat the thread and its arguments based on their own merit? No, of course not, people would point out the underlying bias of the organization the promulgated the thread. Yes, I think they would. I think you’re missing the point. The point isn’t that Shayna needs to be spanked by you for posting anti-McCain threads as an Obama supporter. The point is, you were a jerk for hijacking the thread instead of opening your own on the topic you wanted to discuss. The thread in question was a legitimate thread until you screwed it up with your grudge against Shayna, which no one else cares about anyway. Do you understand? This isn’t really about your politics or Shayna’s, because I don’t give a damn about either. It’s about being able to discuss a topic without some other person with an axe to grind derailing it. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/163 "2008-04-04T22:25:01Z")
Martin, there are conservatives who add something to this board. You are not one of them. I look forward to your departure, as you are clearly spiraling further into madness. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/164 "2008-04-04T22:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Sorry, I don’t owe the OP impartiality. [/QUOTE] Maybe not, but the two of you are not the only people on this message board. You do owe the rest of the board the common courtesy not to ruin threads simply because you disagree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/165 "2008-04-04T23:13:21Z")
I’m not reading the whole goddamn thread, but I couldn’t let this go: > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Unlike some posters who think of their candidate as some sort of religious messiah, I think of my candidate as a simple man. I don’t plan to sit at his feet or worship the ground he walks on. For not worshiping the guy, you sure throw a shit fit if someone calls him stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/166 "2008-04-05T00:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Martin Hyde** > > \when you dare go directly against an anti-GOP or pro-Leftist/Liberal (nowadays pro-Obama) circle jerk in progress. You become that unwelcome guy who makes it harder for everyone in the circle to get off. \ This isn’t helping your cause in any way. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/167 "2008-04-05T00:03:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: You’re not still **here,** are you? [/QUOTE] He’s still here, he’s just not all there! Oh, wait :smack: , I mean how dare you **BrainGlutton** , you degenerate, mentally ill, unwashed mass of extreme left SDMB cancer. **Martin Hyde** is one of, if not the, greatest assets (and the most credible poster) this board has! CMC\* +fnord! \*Proud, degenerate, mentally ill, unwashed mass of extreme left SDMB cancer. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/168 "2008-04-05T00:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] This isn’t helping your cause in any way. [/QUOTE] You’re addressing this to the guy who, despite a mod or two, plus a bunch of folks on **his** side saying ‘yea, dude, you hijacked that thread and it wasn’t cool’ or something to that effect, **still** claims he did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/169 "2008-04-05T00:26:30Z")
I know. This was actually responding to the earlier attempts to steer everyone away from using his admitted past _uncertainty_ against him. I agreed with those attempts. Unfortunately, the quote of his I used makes it much harder. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/170 "2008-04-05T12:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] This is untrue, in that very thread I presented evidence to back up my assertions. There is more evidence out there, but I think one of the key pieces of evidence is the simple _fact_ that Obama supports a guy who publishes hate-speech written by _terrorists_. Jeremiah Wright’s racism is beyond question, and it is my assertion that long-time association, in the manner of making Jeremiah Wright your “spiritual mentor” and even giving him a position on your presidential campaign is a tacit endorsement of the man. It’s one thing if this stuff was a secret, and Obama found out about it after the fact, but there’s no evidence that that is the case. Jeremiah Wright has not been afraid to make these hatemongering feelings of his known for decades. [/QUOTE] Did you bother to listen to any more of Wright’s sermons which contained the objectionable sound bites? Have you done any research on the Trinity church or black liberation theology? Or, are you basing your conclusions on those few clips that ran over and over again? Obama clearly supports the man but has just as clearly denounced the specific comments. It’s just a ludicrous double standard when you consider the republican party’s relationship with the religious right and seeking their favor and support after they have made statements just as hateful as anything Wright said. McCain specifically denounced Jerry Falwell only to recant later when he needed the support for votes. Regardless of how you spin it or what justifications you grasp at there’s no way to to honestly condemn Wright and then Obama by association without condemning the republicans and McCain. > [@](#): > > In any case, as I said, I feel I debated the topic in the original thread. I’m sorry that it was closed, I would have debated it further in that thread. I’m simply not going to make it a habit to repost the same arguments over and over again just because one poster is too afraid to allow debate. This is so transparent and hypocritical. You dropped into a thread specifically about Obama, Wright and racism to post [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9639544&postcount=10) telling readers that you weren’t afraid of open debate. Then when the pit thread was closed because of your hijack you were challenged to return to that thread and debate. You reasons for declining are pretty dam lame. You don’t have to repost all your arguments but can merely provide links to the more pertinent ones. If that’s all it takes for you to refrain from defending your arguments it’s pretty feeble. Calling someone else intellectually dishonest when pulling a stunt like that only makes you look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/171 "2008-04-05T13:32:44Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Yeah, and I agree with a lot of what you’ve posted. In essence for about two years I’ve followed that general level of advice, I’ve ignored a lot of the more idiotic stuff I’ve seen here. I’ve ignored probably 200x what I’ve confronted, and while I think ignoring some of the dumber circle jerk “we all love liberal-thing X” stuff is wise, sometimes I think it has to be hit head-on too. [/QUOTE] You don’ t have to ignore it, as long as you don’t mind the reflexive pile-ins. There’s a reason why some liberals are called “knee-jerkers”. They really _don’t_ think; they just re-post whatever they read in the latest blog from Kos or whatever. Like I said, those folks can be dismissed, or else baited into logical incoherence and then enjoy the howls. But the reasonable members of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy owe it to the rest of the board not to ignore _all_ the left-wing foolishness. We need reasonable thinkers to forestall the descent into liberal madness. Sometimes these loonies get carried away, and we get a half-dozen threads about how Bush is going to cancel the elections or that Laura is going to divorce George because he is drinking again (“I believe it! It was in the National Enquirer, right next to Bigfoot’s miracle cure for arthritis!”). Don’t let the trolls get you down. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/172 "2008-04-05T14:03:33Z")
I think everyone is missing the obvious middle ground here. I propose the **Martin Hyde Rule for Political Debate** : To debate one candidate, one must start a thread about another. To avoid confusion, we should set some ground rules and pairings. To debate something said by Barack Obama, one must start a thread about John McCain (prefixed “McCain is stupid:”). Conversely, to debate McCain, one must start a thread about Obama (“Obama is Racist:”). Hillary is left out, so we’ll pair her with Nader (“Hillary is a Liar:” and “Nader is a Communist:” to debate Nader or Hillary respectively). Working in secret collusion with a closet supporter in order to ensure that the specific topic you want to debate is raised will be allowed, but may cost you points in the Artistic Merit category. It’s much better to wait whilst the proponents for your named candidate throw charges willy-nilly until one hits the mark. At this point, the ball is in play and the game may begin. Actually debating the person named in the thread title will result in a 15 yard penalty for unsportmanlike conduct. A topic which “crosses over” (ie, names McCain, but manages to talk about both Hillary and Obama) will result in an extra base being awarded, but if you catch all three other candidates, a golden goal kick will be given, which, if made, wins the thread. Sure it’ll confuse the shit out of everybody, but it’s consistent, and besides, we just love being all cliquey and engaging in insider jokes that nobody else gets, so touchdown! Just my humble 2 pesos. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/173 "2008-04-05T19:51:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] You know, **Jack** , there are several brands of coffee out there that are just as tasty as caffeinated. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] ABSOLUTELY NOT. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/174 "2008-04-05T19:53:57Z")
I don’t think McCain is stupid. I think he is lying. He knows better. He just wants to president so bad. We have not had enough lying in the last 8 years ,so lets vote for more. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/175 "2008-04-05T20:14:13Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] I propose the **Martin Hyde Rule for Political Debate** : [/QUOTE] I like that. The next time he starts a thread on any subject, everybody should post to it as if he meant the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/176 "2008-04-05T20:38:56Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Don’t let the trolls get you down. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I’ve got to ask you, do you think it’s trolling to deliberately hijack a thread because you have beef with the OP, then refuse to discuss the topic in the appropriate venue? Maybe it’s not trolling. Maybe it’s just being an asshole. That particular quality is completely non-partisan. I wish you’d stop defending it, because that’s what happened here. It wasn’t about Obama or McCain, or politics at all. That’s a red herring. It was a personal grudge that led to a violation of board rules. I’m sure you wouldn’t condone it if one of your ideological opponents did it to one of your threads. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/177 "2008-04-05T21:22:25Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] I’ve got to ask you, do you think it’s trolling to deliberately hijack a thread because you have beef with the OP, then refuse to discuss the topic in the appropriate venue? [/QUOTE] In the Pit? No. Although one must admit, the thread that was solely about Obama got all the way to the second page before McCain got brought in as a _tu quoque_ (along with Sean Hannity, Pat Buchanan, etc.) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/178 "2008-04-05T23:39:21Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] In the Pit? No. [/quote] But you’ve not defended him against the charges of assholery or violating board rules. Can I take your silence for agreement? > [@](#): > > Although one must admit, the thread that was solely about Obama got all the way to the second page before McCain got brought in as a _tu quoque_ (along with Sean Hannity, Pat Buchanan, etc.) > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, so two wrongs make a right. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/179 "2008-04-06T03:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] In the Pit? No. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand this. How is the forum relevant? If the behavior is trollery in GD, then it’s trollery here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556/180 "2008-04-06T19:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] I don’t understand this. How is the forum relevant? If the behavior is trollery in GD, then it’s trollery here. [/QUOTE] Well, then I suppose you could express it by saying that certain forms of trolling are OK in the Pit. (Some forms of trolling are OK in GD, for that matter. It is a time-honored tradition for some people to ask for cites on things that are perfectly obvious, in an effort to derail a discussion that is trending against them). But insults and so forth are OK in the Pit. And instances of a Pitting backfiring on the Pitter are too numerous to require a cite. So thread hijacks, in some sense, although not quite SOP, are tolerated in the Pit. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > But you’ve not defended him against the charges of assholery or violating board rules. Can I take your silence for agreement? You can take it any way you like. The charge of assholery is too tainted to be much of service, since most of those making the accusation are only doing so because **Martin Hyde** is a conservative (and a highly intelligent and articulate one). Besides, the assholery of bringing up someone’s personal life to make attacks because you don’t like his politics is far more assholish than a hijack. And, with some honorable exceptions, I don’t see much condemnation of it. And I am not the one who decides what is and what isn’t a violation of the rules. The mods do that, and, as I have seen no warnings issued, I am assuming no rules violations have occurred. I am not aware of any rule specifically outlawing hijacks _per se_. No doubt if it were persistent it would lead to warnings and banning, but hijacks are too common for me to believe that such a rule is either widely or consistently applied. Although I am open to correction. > [@](#): > > Yeah, so two wrongs make a right. No, I didn’t say that. I am merely pointing out that the outrage over **Martin Hyde** hijacking an anti-McCain thread does not seem to match the outrage over an attempt to hijack an anti-Obama thread. The reasons for that can be left as an exercise to the reader. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shayna-is-an-intellectual-coward/443556.md?page=10)