# Sherlock Holmes and guineas **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320 "2004-02-26T18:44:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/21 "2004-03-01T13:53:26Z")
If I have it correct, and **samclem** can let us know if I do, the “piece of eight” was the eight _real_ or _reale_ coin. The etymology doesn’t have to do with cutting it into pieces, but rather with the fact that it is the Eight Real Piece, or, if you will, the “piece of eight reales,” in the same way that you can have a $20 piece or a 10-pound piece. It is true that _reales_ could be, and often were, cut into smaller fractions when needed; [this site](http://www.espd.com/oxhill/artifacts/Colonial/1780/1780pieceofeight.htm) shows a picture of a 2 _reales_ coin cut in half. Please note that the site apparently buys into the mistaken concept of a 1 _reale_ coin being a “piece of eight”; which fails to understand that the “piece of eight” was the 8 _reales_ coin, not the fraction of same. A perhaps better look at it all can be found [here](http://hegewisch.net/blindkat/pirates/money.html). ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/22 "2004-03-01T14:19:28Z")
I’ve seen a picture of such a prepared coin, but it was decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/23 "2004-03-01T20:01:54Z")
> [@Rube E. Tewesday](#): > > OK, since this seems to be the thread for it…I seem to recall that in one of Orwell’s books, he mentions a coin called a “joe”, which seemed to be an annoying coin that no one wanted in their change. Can anybody tell me what that is? Eric Partridge (_A Dictionary of Historical Slang_, Penguin, 1972) has > [@](#): > > (Also JOEY) A fourpenny piece: ca 1840-1910. Ex _Joseph_ Hume, politician and financial expert (1777-1855). E. Hawkins, _Silver Coins of England_. as the second sense of **joe**. No idea whether this still applied in 1936. Partridge also lists **samclem** ’s suggestion as the fourth sense. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/24 "2004-03-01T21:50:28Z")
Thanks **bonzer** – that certainly makes sense in the context, as I recall it. A coin in an odd amount, that hadn’t been made in years, showing up in your change – kind of like an American getting a Susan B. Anthony. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/25 "2004-03-01T23:32:36Z")
the ‘joey’ was originally the fourpence [groat] issued for a while in Queen Victoria’s time. When this coin became obsolete the name seems to have transferred to the sixpence - although I never heard it used, and only learned of it recently. Five shillings was sometimes referred to as a ‘dollar’ and two-and-six as ‘half a dollar’. Captured Spanish dollars [8 reales] once circulated at the rate of 4/9d ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320/26 "2004-03-02T04:00:39Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > If I have it correct, and **samclem** can let us know if I do, the “piece of eight” was the eight _real_ or _reale_ coin. The etymology doesn’t have to do with cutting it into pieces, but rather with the fact that it is the Eight Real Piece, or, if you will, the “piece of eight reales,” in the same way that you can have a $20 piece or a 10-pound piece. **DS**. You are correct. The OED cites from as early as 1610 make it clear. > [@](#): > > 1610 B. JONSON Alch. III. iii. 15 Round trunkes, Furnish’d with pistolets, and pieces of eight. 1670 NARBOROUGH Jrnl. in Acc. Sev. Late Voy. I. (1694) 97 The Spaniards…paid for what things they bought in good Pillar pieces of Eight. They were talking about ‘dollar-sized’ coins. The concept of cutting ‘dollar-sized’ eight reales coins into fractions is something, about which, I feel rather strongly. I have always maintained, after 33 years of buying coins for a living, that the practice was NOT common, probably was mainly confined to the Carribean Islands, and was not a general practice in the US mainland. I’ve bought thousands of coin hoards over the counter these last 30+ years. I have yet to buy a “cut” fractional piece of an “eight real”/dollar-sized coin, except for one or two pieces which were deliberately cut for use in the Islands. Can anyone tell me that **all** of the small, cut pieces were melted over the years so that they never turn up in collections/accumulations that are hundreds of years old? Pshaw! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-holmes-and-guineas/231320.md?page=1)