# Sherlock January 1 2017 "The Six Thatchers" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975 "2016-12-31T17:06:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/61 "2017-01-03T22:13:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t suppose there’s any point in quibbling about the tired “person throwing themselves in front of a bullet after the gun’s already been fired” trope. Mary’s a super-agent, not a superhero, and outrunning a bullet is not an option regardless of whether you’re in slo-mo or not. This. The bullet gets one third of the way there, THEN she jumps in front of it. No, sorry, we’re talking 800fps or better, which means it takes 0.015 seconds or less to hit him from where she’s standing. Superman may move that fast, Humans don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/62 "2017-01-04T04:18:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And let’s face it, the main suspense in that scene came from wondering whether they had the budget to show the breaking of the aquarium glass via bullet. That \*would \*have been expensive, even if faked in the computer. Just saw the episode, and wondered if she was going to just shoot out the aquarium glass to cause a distraction. And I also wondered if the whole Mary-is-killed bit was just a fakeout to allow the secret agent to establish a new identity somewhere else. That would seem to match the ridiculous level of complexity that this show seems to love, but then again, they already did the faked death bit, when Sherlock didn’t die after jumping off that building. In short, I thought that making the story overly convoluted does not mean the writing is automatically clever. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/63 "2017-01-04T11:55:38Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Just saw the episode, and wondered if she was going to just shoot out the aquarium glass to cause a distraction. In [that particular aquarium](https://www2.visitsealife.com/london/) (which is very nice, if somewhat overpriced), shooting out the aquarium glass (if even possible) would cause a helluva lot more than a “distraction” from where they were standing - there’s a whole lot more water above them and at best they’d all be washed down the corridor in a tumult if they didn’t actually get drowned or smashed against something hard. And that’s not even considering the various aquatic creatures being washed along with them. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/64 "2017-01-04T16:01:47Z")
Ok finally saw the episode. I didn’t think it was too bad though I agree the part at the very beginning with Sherlock being all crazy in the meeting seemed really off. I was never a big Mary fan (once I refreshed myself on the past episodes) so I wasn’t too sad to see her go. I don’t understand why she had to throw herself in front of the bullet though. Why not just…push him out of the way? Probably would have been just as effective. One thing I don’t understand though, is why is John made at Sherlock? It doesn’t make sense. As far as I can tell, he didn’t do anything that directly resulted in her dying. And as for my friend. Yes. She’s convinced this season they’re going to come out as a couple. That the signs have been there all along. And while I admit, there’s been a LOT of queerbaiting on the show, it’s just not going to happen. It doesn’t fit with the show or the characters. Though she (and her friends) are convinced that the Moffet interview is just a lie to throw them off. Something about Moffet writing Sherlock slash fics before coming on as a writer for the show?? Lol I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/65 "2017-01-04T16:07:22Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > One thing I don’t understand though, is why is John made at Sherlock? It doesn’t make sense. As far as I can tell, he didn’t do anything that directly resulted in her dying. First, he vowed he would protect them, and he did not. Period. Secondly, sure he did. He invited Mary and John to meet him at the Aquarium to confront Vivian, without bothering to bring the police along - John had to do that. Then he taunted and belittled her after he she pulled out a gun, even though he knew she was perfectly content to send dozens of people to death just to protect her crimes from being revealed. He’s so in love with showing off his own cleverness that he’s willing to put people at risk just to do so. He could have just as easily tipped off his brother & Lestrade to arrest her - no muss, no fuss, no danger. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/66 "2017-01-04T16:07:32Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > One thing I don’t understand though, is why is John made at Sherlock? It doesn’t make sense. As far as I can tell, he didn’t do anything that directly resulted in her dying. After identifying the guilty party, Sherlock then stood there and belittled her for no good reason other than to show off what a clever boy he was…which is generally a bad idea when dealing with someone with a gun. Sherlock pledged to protect Mary, and yet Mary died just because Sherlock felt like being a dick. I’d be pissed off at him too. ETA: Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/67 "2017-01-04T16:13:29Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Ok finally saw the episode. I didn’t think it was too bad though I agree the part at the very beginning with Sherlock being all crazy in the meeting seemed really off. I was never a big Mary fan (once I refreshed myself on the past episodes) so I wasn’t too sad to see her go. I don’t understand why she had to throw herself in front of the bullet though. Why not just…push him out of the way? Probably would have been just as effective. > > One thing I don’t understand though, is why is John made at Sherlock? It doesn’t make sense. As far as I can tell, he didn’t do anything that directly resulted in her dying. > > And as for my friend. Yes. She’s convinced this season they’re going to come out as a couple. That the signs have been there all along. And while I admit, there’s been a LOT of queerbaiting on the show, it’s just not going to happen. It doesn’t fit with the show or the characters. Though she (and her friends) are convinced that the Moffet interview is just a lie to throw them off. Something about Moffet writing Sherlock slash fics before coming on as a writer for the show?? Lol I have no idea. Ahhh. A Conspiracist. :rolleyes: I have…issues with them. Moffatt didn’t write Sherlock slash fics, but Mark Gatiss did write at least one book of all-male erotica. Which makes sense, because he’s a writer and he’s gay. The Conspiracists started off okay, but they’ve gone over the deep end into tin hat territory. They write long, exhaustive metas that “prove” the conclusion they want to see. Ahhhh I could rant, and I have, elsewhere, but I won’t befoul this space with it. And don’t get me wrong - I ship it. I ship it hard. But it’s just not. going. to. happen. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/68 "2017-01-04T16:25:16Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > After identifying the guilty party, Sherlock then stood there and belittled her for no good reason other than to show off what a clever boy he was…which is generally a bad idea when dealing with someone with a gun. Sherlock pledged to protect Mary, and yet Mary died just because Sherlock felt like being a dick. I’d be pissed off at him too. > > ETA: Ninja’d! Of course, the hole in our theory is that John didn’t actually see any of that - he didn’t arrive until after Mary was shot. But I’m sure he figured out that Sherlock probably wasn’t doing anything to improve the situation. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/69 "2017-01-04T16:34:30Z")
Damn, I really wasn’t paying much attention near the end was I? lol Ok yeah that makes sense now. Or you know, it could be that seeing Sherlock almost die again (forget about Mary) has made John realize his undying love for him and, as a man presenting as straight all his life, that’s just too much for him to deal with right now and he’s hiding himself away in shame of his true feelings. Come on. That’s SO what’s going on here guys. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/70 "2017-01-04T16:44:22Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Damn, I really wasn’t paying much attention near the end was I? lol Ok yeah that makes sense now. Or you know, it could be that seeing Sherlock almost die again (forget about Mary) has made John realize his undying love for him and, as a man presenting as straight all his life, that’s just too much for him to deal with right now and he’s hiding himself away in shame of his true feelings. Come on. That’s SO what’s going on here guys. Good theory too, except that John didn’t know that Sherlock was Vivian’s target - as far as he knows Vivian shot Mary on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/71 "2017-01-04T18:52:30Z")
A disappointing start to the season, I thought (I did recognize the Thatcher admirer as an actor from _Downtown Abbey_, though). Incredible to me that four super-assassins would each carry around with them on all their super-dangerous missions - and allow the others to do the same - data chips with full background information on each of them. WTF? > [@teela\_brown](#): > > …So, Sherrinford has been mentioned, eh? Any predictions how this is going to shake out? Another Holmes brother, mebbe? “Sherrinford” was Sherlock’s original name in Conan Doyle’s first writings about the great detective. > [@Lamia](#): > > I’m not deep into Sherlock Holmes fandom, but I have heard before that many fans of the original stories consider Watson to have been a ladies man.\* I believe the main evidence for this is that Watson claims considerable experience with women in IIRC _A Study in Scarlet_… Yes, both Holmes and Watson comment in the original stories on Watson’s being a bit of a playa, with “an experience of women which extends over many nations and three separate continents.” For more: [転職index](http://www.sherlockpeoria.net/Who_is_Sherlock/WatsonsWives.html) > [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t suppose there’s any point in quibbling about the tired “person throwing themselves in front of a bullet after the gun’s already been fired” trope. Mary’s a super-agent, not a superhero, and outrunning a bullet is not an option regardless of whether you’re in slo-mo or not. Ugh. Agreed. > [@RickJay](#): > > …The Watson affair with the bus lady seemed like it should have had some sort of emotional weight, and to be honest I can see the point of it; it does humanize Watson’s perfection a little. Or what point they were trying to make, anyway. But it was as if they jammed it in without connecting it to anything else - and, of course, barring future revelations, it is rather hard to believe Dr. John Watson hid this affair from his secret agent wife and SHERLOCK FRICKIN’ HOLMES. Also agreed (and how did that flower come to be behind Watson’s ear, anyway?). > [@muldoonthief](#): > > First, [Holmes] vowed he would protect them, and he did not. Period. > > Secondly, sure he did. He invited Mary and John to meet him at the Aquarium to confront Vivian, without bothering to bring the police along - John had to do that. Then he taunted and belittled her after he she pulled out a gun, even though he knew she was perfectly content to send dozens of people to death just to protect her crimes from being revealed. He’s so in love with showing off his own cleverness that he’s willing to put people at risk just to do so. He could have just as easily tipped off his brother & Lestrade to arrest her - no muss, no fuss, no danger. Well said. Vowing to protect them, then leaving them in their easily-found flat, and _then_ inviting them to a confrontation with the villain was incredibly stupid. And that is just what Sherlock is not. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/72 "2017-01-04T18:59:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Also agreed (and how did that flower come to be behind Watson’s ear, anyway?). They showed that - he was playing with Rose and the flower, tucked it behind his ear while he was changing her diaper, and forgot it was there. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/73 "2017-01-04T20:10:13Z")
My favorite part of the episode was when Giles and John kept discussing all the demands of a new baby as Sherlock followed in confused indignation. “I think he needs winding.” ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/74 "2017-01-04T21:28:07Z")
So, in the Easter egg at the very end, Mary says “Go to hell, Sherlock.” Surely she’s not cursing him, after begging for him to look after John? She’s telling him something without seeming to, I think. I Googled up place names, and the first thing that comes up is “Hell, Norway”. An episode description of episode three on IMDB says that Sherlock and John are going to Europe. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/75 "2017-01-04T21:57:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Was is an actual affair, or just temptation? > > Because we see nothing to indicate any sort of affair led to sex. Sure, he saw an attractive lady on the bus, the temptation was certainly there (because lord knows the Watsons have had issues in their relationship), they were texting each other, but while an affair was implied I don’t see it as proven. It was very strongly implied, though. The phrasing of the texts implies that they have spent time together. Watson is clearly hiding the texts from Mary. And it appeared that he was about to confess something to Mary when Sherlock called. The guilty behavior points only to cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/76 "2017-01-04T22:21:42Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > I agree that the episode had flaws, but taken as a whole, it really helped to tidy up their world. It resets the focus back to where it belongs. Yes. The first part of the episode starts out very well—but then gets dragged down by the whole Mary the Super Spy-silliness; I’m glad it turned out to be a sendoff in the end. I never quite figured out the purpose of Mary—I mean, from a writing point of view, you’ve got Sherlock Holmes to work with, and you introduce a secret superagent in retirement who’s haunted by her past? Not only is that a tired cliche, it’s also something you can’t just push into the background again, so I suppose something like this was inevitable. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > Secondly, sure he did. He invited Mary and John to meet him at the Aquarium to confront Vivian, without bothering to bring the police along - John had to do that. Then he taunted and belittled her after he she pulled out a gun, even though he knew she was perfectly content to send dozens of people to death just to protect her crimes from being revealed. He’s so in love with showing off his own cleverness that he’s willing to put people at risk just to do so. He could have just as easily tipped off his brother & Lestrade to arrest her - no muss, no fuss, no danger. And he even recognizes his guilt—that’s why he instructed Mrs. Hudson that, whenever she notices him getting too cocky, to say the word ‘Norbury’; because his getting too cocky was exactly what caused Mary’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/77 "2017-01-04T22:52:29Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > And he even recognizes his guilt—that’s why he instructed Mrs. Hudson that, whenever she notices him getting too cocky, to say the word ‘Norbury’; because his getting too cocky was exactly what caused Mary’s death. That interaction with Mrs. Hudson would be a moving moment for the average protagonist. But did it fit in any way with what we’ve been shown of Sherlock’s personality/character…? ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/78 "2017-01-04T23:00:53Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That interaction with Mrs. Hudson would be a moving moment for the average protagonist. But did it fit in any way with what we’ve been shown of Sherlock’s personality/character…? Well, it’s straight out of Arthur Conan Doyle’s adventure “The Yellow Face”: “Watson,” said he, “if it should ever strike you that I am getting a little over-confident in my powers, or giving less pains to a case than it deserves, kindly whisper ‘Norbury’ in my ear, and I shall be infinitely obliged to you.” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/79 "2017-01-04T23:08:54Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > Well, it’s straight out of Arthur Conan Doyle’s adventure “The Yellow Face”: > > “Watson,” said he, “if it should ever strike you that I am getting a little over-confident in my powers, or giving less pains to a case than it deserves, kindly whisper ‘Norbury’ in my ear, and I shall be infinitely obliged to you.” Okay, then. I will agree that call-backs to the Canon are important in the show. And this bit was written, apparently, some sixteen or seventeen years after the first Holmes story appeared, so it would be ridiculous to assert that the moment of humility violates the character (which we should assume was well-established by then). Thanks–ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975/80 "2017-01-05T05:37:53Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > They showed that - he was playing with Rose and the flower, tucked it behind his ear while he was changing her diaper, and forgot it was there. Ah, thanks. I missed that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherlock-january-1-2017-the-six-thatchers-open-spoilers/775975.md?page=5)