# Sherwood Anderson - Pompous and Dishonest **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 2, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122 "2011-08-02T01:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/1 "2011-08-02T01:04:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SherwoodAnderson > I don’t agree at all, for the reasons outlined here. > > CliffNotes: > > You’ve on numerous occasions tried to support your statements with data pulled from a blog written by a PhD student who subscribes to the right-wing conspiracy theory of a secret cabaal of “Cultural Marxists” who imposes the norms of tolerance and multiculturalism on western societies (other supporters of that theory are Breivik and RaleighRally). > > When I pointed out (some time ago) that that blogger posted faulty/fraudulent data you didn’t give a shit and kept on using that same source without giving other folks a fair warning. > > That indicates lack of intellectual honesty, and a propensity for choosing agenda over transparency and quality control. IOW dishonesty. Heh, it is a truly heady experience being accused of intellectual dishonesty by someone who: a) disapeared once I provided the source of Tino Sanandaji’s figures. b) Continues to suggest he gave incorrect data, when I’ve already shown you how he got that figure. Instead you’re continuing to rant in a pompous manner, at least have the decency to go back and privately re-read the thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/2 "2011-08-02T01:17:42Z")
A little context, I linked to a [post](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html) by University of Chicago PhD student Tino Sanandaji on his Super-Economy blog. In the article Sanandaji made the following comment: > [@](#): > > The article exaggerates the problems by focusing on Rosengård, the worst (major) ghetto in Sweden. Yes, in Rosengård 80% of adult don’t work, but for Sweden as a whole the figure for non-western immigrants is about 50%. **Sherwood** considered this was fraudulent. Well, you can get the data directly by looking at the 2009 [Employment database of Statistics Sweden](http://www.scb.se/Pages/List ____ 250611.aspx). According to this, the share of the population 20-64 who were gainfully employed was: Born in Sweden: 79.3% Born in Asia, Africa, Latin America: 46.5%. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/3 "2011-08-02T01:18:25Z")
_sigh_ **Chen,** you just walked right into the stoning-pit waving the “Jehovah Sux!” flag. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/4 "2011-08-02T01:18:55Z")
I don’t know who the hell **SherwoodAnderson** is, but–sight unseen–I trust him something like 9348 times more than I trust you. There are no posters on this board who are more mendacious and more untrustworthy than you. Seriously, none. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/5 "2011-08-02T01:21:47Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I don’t know who the hell **SherwoodAnderson** is, but–sight unseen–I trust him something like 9348 times more than I trust you. There are no posters on this board who are more mendacious and more untrustworthy than you. Seriously, none. I try to provide citations for my data. If I’ve said anything you consider to be factually incorrect please point it out. You must have some examples to justify such a strong comment? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/6 "2011-08-02T01:30:57Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I try to provide citations for my data. If I’ve said anything you consider to be factually incorrect please point it out. > > You must have some examples to justify such a strong comment? Yes, in fact, your link in post #2 is a link to the “Finding Statistics” page of “Statistics Sweden”, and does not demonstrate what you claim it does. (I’ll admit to some mild curiousity as to why it’s in English. An EU thing?) Please link either directly to the page you’re citing, or give us your method so that we can duplicate your results. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/7 "2011-08-02T01:34:31Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes, in fact, your link in post #2 is a link to the “Finding Statistics” page of “Statistics Sweden”, and does not demonstrate what you claim it does. (I’ll admit to some mild curiousity as to why it’s in English. An EU thing?) > > Please link either directly to the page you’re citing, or give us your method so that we can duplicate your results. Click: Statistical database (on left): Click: Labor Market Click:“Population 16+ years (RAMS) at national level, employment, country of birth, latest year of immigration, age and sex. Year 2004-2009” Make choices: (gainfully and not gainfully, region of birth, age, year) Leave “latest year of immigration” and “sex” empty in order to get the full sample. For a slightly older paper, in Swedish: > [@](#): > > “Medan över 80 procent av befolkningen som är född i Sverige förvärvs¬arbetar **är motsvarande siffra för utomeuropeiskt födda knappt 55 procent** ” This cites 80% employment rate for Swedes versus a little below 55 percent for non-European immigrants (which includes North America and Oceania). [http://www.svensktnaringsliv.se/multimedia/archive/00023/Sj\_lvm\_l\_i\_syssels\_t\_23183a.pdf](http://www.svensktnaringsliv.se/multimedia/archive/00023/Sj_lvm_l_i_syssels_t_23183a.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/8 "2011-08-02T01:39:40Z")
Beards, stones, packets of gravel, get 'em while they last . . . ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/9 "2011-08-02T01:41:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Beards, stones, packets of gravel, get 'em while they last . . . Hehe, I’m popping out and won’t be near the computer for a while **Brain Glutton** , I’ll leave you to hold the fort. If that **Sherwood Anderson** character shows up offer him a beer and tell him to chill before launching another tirade. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/10 "2011-08-02T01:44:18Z")
Pleading guilty to pompous, denying dishonest! ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/11 "2011-08-02T01:49:12Z")
He’s not 100% on the level, but I agree with most of his ideas and think he’s more intellectually honest than the likes of Ralleigh Rally, aka Brevik Jr, whose IP we need to submit to the Swedish authorities just in fucking case. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/12 "2011-08-02T01:55:58Z")
As it happens I’m on my way out as well so I’ll leave this as homework for Chen and get back tomorrow: > [@](#): > > a) disapeared once I provided the source of Tino Sanandaji’s figures. Please provide a link to the thread where this happened. In the original thread where the claim was made I asked you two or three times to adress the stats that I had posted that were not consistent with Sanandajis. Finally you - as I recall it - thanked me for giving you additional data and that’s the last I saw of it. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/13 "2011-08-02T02:05:46Z")
Without going into too much elaboration, statistical data is only that, a stat. The sticky point is always interpretation because no statistical method can account for systematic labour market issues that exist in a country like Sweden. As I have 1st hand accounts available to me I’ll just mention couple of those; first, in order to be considered for any job in Swedish job market one has to have certified knowledge of Swedish language. Personally, I’d agree if there would not be a degree of judgment and estimation embedded in. In other words, you might even have a vocabulary for a job that you are applying but in most cases, it is a government official that is passing the judgment not the employer. Therefore, a potential employee has an obstacle that is sometimes incredibly discouraging. Another thing is, as any immigrant who applies for a job in Sweden knows, native born Swedes are given explicit priority so in a times of scarce jobs guess who’ll end up with no job. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/14 "2011-08-02T02:07:08Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Click: Statistical database (on left): > > Click: Labor Market > Click:“Population 16+ years (RAMS) at national level, employment, country of birth, latest year of immigration, age and sex. Year 2004-2009” > > Make choices: (gainfully and not gainfully, region of birth, age, year) > > Leave “latest year of immigration” and “sex” empty in order to get the full sample. OK, eyeballing the numbers, the percentages you claim appear to be about right. That probably moves you up a step or two from most mendacious. But, since I’ve now read the blog post you support, it doesn’t move you up a step or two in my respect. And I’ll await **SherwoodAnderson** ’s numbers. How many roads must a man walk down to get a cite around here? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/15 "2011-08-02T02:13:16Z")
Board racist pits someone. This will end well. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/16 "2011-08-02T02:20:45Z")
> [@SherwoodAnderson](#): > > As it happens I’m on my way out as well so I’ll leave this as homework for Chen and get back tomorrow: > > Please provide a link to the thread where this happened. > > In the original thread where the claim was made I asked you two or three times to adress the stats that I had posted that were not consistent with Sanandajis. Finally you - as I recall it - thanked me for giving you additional data and that’s the last I saw of it. I provided the clarification [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13889322&postcount=134). If you genuinely didn’t see it, then that’s fine. **I retract my comment about you being dishonest.** In relation to the pompous charge you pleaded guilty to that, so I guess that stands. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/17 "2011-08-02T02:22:52Z")
Ok, found the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13889322&postcount=134). The simple explanation for why I - as you put it Chen - disappeared, and never responded to your follow-up, was because you posted it ~24 hours after my latest post in that thread and about ~50-60 h after I first said that the data seemed off, we had a couple of posts about it and you said - from what I understood it that you didn’t much see a big problem with that. If you expect me to wait almost three days for you to find new numbers on the internet in response to a post I wrote and if you’re gonna feel all hurt that I in fact missed your follow-up - well then you could perhaps say something like: I agree, this seems strange. I’m gonna check this out and get back to you - but it’s gonna take a while. Just a thought. I’ll get back to the numbers tomorrow. ETA: Ok, you posted the link already obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/18 "2011-08-02T03:19:13Z")
> [@SherwoodAnderson](#): > > Ok, found the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13889322&postcount=134). The simple explanation for why I - as you put it Chen - disappeared, and never responded to your follow-up, was because you posted it ~24 hours after my latest post in that thread and about ~50-60 h after I first said that the data seemed off, we had a couple of posts about it and you said - from what I understood it that you didn’t much see a big problem with that. > > If you expect me to wait almost three days for you to find new numbers on the internet in response to a post I wrote and if you’re gonna feel all hurt that I in fact missed your follow-up - well then you could perhaps say something like: I agree, this seems strange. I’m gonna check this out and get back to you - but it’s gonna take a while. > . Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/19 "2011-08-02T06:05:25Z")
Not sure what the beef was that inspired the thread, but Sweden does have difficulty integrating immigrants into its workforce: > [@](#): > > The evidence concerning discrimination suggests that this is not an insignificant impediment to employment in Sweden. studies of persons with an immigrant background born in Sweden, who presumably do not have language deficiencies, show less favourable outcomes than for persons with similar characteristics born to native-born Swedes. > … > Over a third of the current foreign-born working-age population in Sweden entered during the past ten years. As far as additions to the working-age population due to immigration are concerned, Sweden has seen a relatively large increase over the ten-year period ending in 2003 (5.1 percentage points) exceeded only by that observed in Australia. > … > Nonetheless, the pattern observed is as expected, namely that immigrants who have been in the country longer have better outcomes in the labour market and the longer the presence, the closer average outcomes tend to be to those of natives (Chart 2). However, only in Australia and Canada (and in the United Kingdom with respect to unemployment) does one observe outcomes for foreign-born persons who have been in the country for over 10 years that resemble those of the native-born. Although immigrants in Sweden show, as in other countries, improvement with stay in the country, immigrants having arrived recently show among the lowest participation rates and the highest unemployment rates during the early years in the host country. Indeed, what characterises Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands together are the more unfavourable outcomes in the early years relative to Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom as well. > … > With 1985 came the introduction of social assistance for refugees for an eighteen-month introductory period, the transfer of responsibility for integration away from the Labour Market Board and the refugee dispersal policy in which refugees were assigned to municipalities throughout Sweden to relieve the pressure on the large agglomerations, with local economic conditions not always being taken into account. The dispersal policy had a negative effect on immigrant outcomes, particularly with respect to those arriving during the economic crisis, for whom the effects seem in many cases to be persistent. Analyses also suggest that the change in the administrative responsibility for integration and the emphasis on income support, if not necessarily responsible for, was nonetheless associated with less favourable outcomes for new arrivals, independently of local economic conditions. In addition, the Labour Board’s mandate effectively became that of dealing with workers deemed to be ready for the labour market, that is, requiring no services other than those provided by the Labour Boards. Responsibility for immigrant-specific skill deficiencies, both with respect to language competence and the applicability of foreign qualifications and work experience to the Swedish situation, lay consequently elsewhere. From: Lemaitre, G. 2007. The Integration of Immigrants into the Labour Market: The Case of Sweden, OECD Social, Employment and Migration Working Papers. Pages 5, 18, 19, 32 Sounds like some big problems were discrimination against foreigners, a large number of recent migrants, and distribution of migrants to areas irrespective of employment availability in those areas. Luckily, the longer the migrants remain in Sweden, the more their employment outcomes resemble those of native-born Swedes. What was the argument about? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/20 "2011-08-02T21:34:52Z")
I think about whether Western Europe should allow Muslims to live there, or something… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122.md?page=2)