# Sherwood Anderson - Pompous and Dishonest **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 2, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122 "2011-08-02T01:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/21 "2011-08-02T21:50:15Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Another thing is, as any immigrant who applies for a job in Sweden knows, native born Swedes are given explicit priority so in a times of scarce jobs guess who’ll end up with no job. What a lie! It is just the other way around. **The Swedes** are being discriminated by their own government to the advantage of the immigrants: > [@](#): > > _Welcome to Sweden and a step-in job_ > > An opportunity for new arrivals in Sweden who are seeking work. > > At the Swedish Public Employment Service (Arbetsförmedlingen), we know how important it is to have a job. Many companies and organisations need workers. In order to make them aware of the skills and competence which you and other newly arrived immigrants have to offer, **the Swedish Government has decided to give an employment grant to the employer who employs you**. > > _You can get a step-in job_ > > If you have been granted a residence permit during the past 36 months, you can get a step-in job (“instegsjobb"). > \*\*This means that whoever employs you will receive a government grant towards your pay, as much as 80% but not more than SEK 800 per day. \*\* [http://www.arbetsformedlingen.se/Globalmeny/Other-languages/New-in-Sweden/Get-a-step-in-job.html](http://www.arbetsformedlingen.se/Globalmeny/Other-languages/New-in-Sweden/Get-a-step-in-job.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/22 "2011-08-03T00:32:08Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Not sure what the beef was that inspired the thread, but Sweden does have difficulty integrating immigrants into its workforce: > … > > What was the argument about? I think the argument was partly about the issues you discussed. The beef that inspired the thread related to the comment that [“about 50%” of non-western immigrants in Sweden didn’t work](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html). The blog post didn’t specify the source of this figure and SA suggested it was basically fraudulent and cited some OECD figures from around 2003. I subsequently noted that the figures were consistent with 2009 figures from the Employment database of Statistics Sweden. SA recently suggested I was dishonest for referring to the Super Economy blog. I then posted this thread suggesting he was dishonest for ignoring the 2009 figures. SA has since said he didn’t see my later post & I retracted my charge of dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/23 "2011-08-03T00:41:18Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Sounds like some big problems were discrimination against foreigners, a large number of recent migrants, and distribution of migrants to areas irrespective of employment availability in those areas. Luckily, the longer the migrants remain in Sweden, the more their employment outcomes resemble those of native-born Swedes.? In the UK, France & Germany employment outcomes for second generation non-European immigrants seem to [improve for women but not men](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/10/second-generation-immigrants-in-europe.html). > [@](#): > > What the trends suggests is happening that for men, the immigrant culture that has emerged in Europe is worse even than the culture they brought with them from Turkey, Algeria etc. Women instead are less oppressed, and work more than their mothers. > > Comparing Second generation male immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants: > > UK -10% > France -13% > Germany -19% > > Comparing Second generation female immigrant relative employment rates with the first generation immigrants: > > UK +15% > France +8% > Germany +2% > > Employment rates (the figure in the parenthesis compared immigrants to the native born): > > U.K > > Native Men: 79.0% > First generation non-European immigrant Men: 67.8% (-14%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 60.0% (-24%) > > Native women: 66.5% > First generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.3% (-35%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 53.5% (-20%) > > France > > Native Men: 66.3% > First generation non-European immigrant Men: 61.6% (-7%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.0% (-20%) > > Native Women: 58.9% > First generation non-European immigrant Women: 37.6% (-36%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.4% (-28%) > > Germany > > Native Men: 75.3% > First generation non-European immigrant Men: 68.5% (-9%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Men: 53.9% (-28%) > > Native women: 65.8% > First generation non-European immigrant Women: 42.5% (-35%) > Second generation non-European immigrant Women: 43.8% (-33%) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/24 "2011-08-03T00:55:48Z")
\*\*Chen \*\*pitting anyone for dishonesty and pompousness betrays a staggering, breath-taking lack of self-awareness. [Forrest Gump]That’s all I have to say about that.[/Forrest Gump] Also, **RaleighRally** : crawl back under your bridge you disingenuous, self-absorbed, xenophobic, cowardly, scrawny little troll. And eat a pound of typhus-laced feces. Vikings would shit their infectious diseases directly down your throat, of course, but I’m just a genetically inferior Southern European. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/25 "2011-08-03T01:24:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Also, **RaleighRally** : crawl back under your bridge you disingenuous, self-absorbed, xenophobic, cowardly, scrawny little troll. And eat a pound of typhus-laced feces. > Vikings would shit their infectious diseases directly down your throat, of course, but I’m just a genetically inferior Southern European. All ethnicities think they are better than at least some other ethnicity, otherwise it would be impossible to be proud of one’s own heritage. However, it only becomes racism if one’s ethnicity is closer to Scandinavia than the other ethnicity. Example: You can say that the French are better than the Swedes, but you cannot say that the French are better than the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/26 "2011-08-03T01:26:28Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Example: You can say that the French are better than the Swedes, but you cannot say that the French are better than the Arabs. Mainly because both statements are wrong! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/27 "2011-08-03T03:22:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Mainly because both statements are wrong! 😃 I meant, of course, from a subjective perspective.🙂 Nevertheless, time to pit SherwoodAnderson. I never forget how angry he became when I posted Youtube-vids about the madness in Sweden. I suppose he had bragged to all his liberal friends about the Scandinavian utopia and then I stumbled in and wrecked that idealized image. SherwoodAnderson is the epitome of a PC-police and I predict him a bright future as a political Commissar in the forthcoming EUSSR. Just in case you have missed them: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wRnP-XzB_U0/hqdefault.jpg "CBN: Malmö, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/OrfLjozo8NM/hqdefault.jpg "sweden in FOX news") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrfLjozo8NM) ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/28 "2011-08-03T03:52:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > In the UK, France & Germany employment outcomes for second generation non-European immigrants seem to [improve for women but not men](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/10/second-generation-immigrants-in-europe.html). > [@](#): > > We compare outcomes in terms of education, earnings and employment. For almost all countries and immigrant groups, second-generation immigrants have lower gaps in education than the first generation. This perhaps suggests that the education systems are working to integrate the children of immigrants though it is much harder to say whether progress is as fast as it could be. > For labour market performance, we do not find similarly marked evidence of progress for all countries and for all immigrant groups. For net earnings, and conditional on education, potential experience and regional allocation, **the UK stands out as having particularly large differences for the first generation but also much improved outcomes for the second generation. Evidence of progress in France and Germany is not so clear-cut. Employment gaps for men in Germany and the UK seem quite similar for first and second-generation immigrants but France has a number of groups in which the second-generation immigrants seem to be doing worse than the first. For women, patterns are similar but there is clearer general evidence of a reduction in employment gaps for the second generation.** From Algan, Y., Dustmann, C., Glitz, A. and A. Manning. 2010. [The Economic Situation of First and Second-Generation Immigrants in France, Germany and the United Kingdom](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2009.02338.x/pdf). _The Economic Journal_, 120, pages 25-27. (this is the paper cited in the blog post linked) I think you should go directly to the source instead of trusting this blog. De-assimilation would be a cultural artifact, and culture cannot be deduced from employment rates. Indeed, the term “de-assimilation” doesn’t appear in the paper cited and no cultural data was collected in that work, so the blog’s author is making that up. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/29 "2011-08-03T04:55:50Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > From Algan, Y., Dustmann, C., Glitz, A. and A. Manning. 2010. [The Economic Situation of First and Second-Generation Immigrants in France, Germany and the United Kingdom](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2009.02338.x/pdf). _The Economic Journal_, 120, pages 25-27. (this is the paper cited in the blog post linked) > I think you should go directly to the source instead of trusting this blog. De-assimilation would be a cultural artifact, and culture cannot be deduced from employment rates. Indeed, the term “de-assimilation” doesn’t appear in the paper cited and no cultural data was collected in that work, so the blog’s author is making that up. He’s drawing an inference, which doesn’t seem unreasonable. The women do seem to work more, which presumably is due in part to a reduction of the kind of oppression they would face in their home countries. As for the men, he notes that their lower level of employment of the 2nd generation compared to the 1st generation and this may be due to them assimilating into a new type of gheto culture. He notes this is “a possibility”. What is your take on the lower employment rates for the 2nd generation men? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/30 "2011-08-03T11:51:07Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > All ethnicities think they are better than at least some other ethnicity, otherwise it would be impossible to be proud of one’s own heritage. :rolleyes: Ermm, yes it would, **Raleigh.** It’s like with your family. You’re neither proud of it nor loyal to it because it is the best in the world, nor because it is better than any other, but just because it’s yours. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/31 "2011-08-03T16:22:55Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > He’s drawing an inference, which doesn’t seem unreasonable. The women do seem to work more, which presumably is due in part to a reduction of the kind of oppression they would face in their home countries. Based on what general principle does he believe he can draw inferences on culture from employment data? Let me give you an example. Below are unemployment rates for men and women in a broadly construed cultural/ethnic group in the United States in 2007 and 2010. In the spoiler box below are the labels for what that cultural/ethnic group is. Given no other information, we can see that in this data set, male unemployment rises faster than female unemployment. Perhaps this is due to “cultural de-assimilation.” If anyone can demonstrate some method by which the employment numbers can be used to derive the cultural movement of this group or even the identity of that cultural/ethnic group without looking in the spoiler box, then the blog author has a point. Year 2010 Unemployment rates as percentage of labor force 16 years and older: Males of Cultural/Ethnic Group: 9.6 Females of Cultural/Ethnic Group: 7.7 Year 2007 Unemployment rates as percentage of labor force 16 years and older: Males of Cultural/Ethnic Group: 4.2 Females of Cultural/Ethnic Group: 4.0 Year 2010 Unemployment rates as percentage of labor force 16 years and older: White Males: 9.6 White Females: 7.7 Year 2007 Unemployment rates as percentage of labor force 16 years and older: White Males: 4.2 White Females: 4.0 Source: [http://www.bls.gov/cps/](http://www.bls.gov/cps/) The likely reason for the U.S. White Male unemployment rate rising faster than the U.S. White Female unemployment rate is that the recession has hit traditionally male-dominated industries (e.g. construction, automobile manufacturing) harder than traditionally female-dominated industries (e.g. education and health services.) > [@](#): > > What is your take on the lower employment rates for the 2nd generation men? I don’t need to have one to realize that cultural data such as language proficiency, marriage rates by ethnic/cultural origin, temple/church/synagogue/mosque/other attendance, and communications rate with individuals of different cultural affiliation are the measures one uses to infer a cultural shift, not unemployment rates. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/32 "2011-08-04T05:48:17Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Based on what general principle does he believe he can draw inferences on culture from employment data? > … > temple/church/synagogue/mosque/other attendance, and communications rate with individuals of different cultural affiliation are the measures one uses to infer a cultural shift, not unemployment rates. Those would be helpful too, but unemployment rates aren’t irrelevant. You’d assume that the second generation would be more likely to perform in similar fashion to the local population. But that progress doesn’t appear to be occurring in relation to the men. Maybe it is the case that many of the first generation were in labour intensive industries and those roles have been made redundant by outsourcing or improved technology. In which case it’s still bad news because it suggests these governments are importing groups who are more likely to end up in the low socioeconomic range and struggle to find employment. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122/33 "2011-08-04T14:40:49Z")
I can’t help but notice that you have not described a mechanism by which unemployment rates can be used to diagnose a cultural shift such as the alleged “de-assimilation.” I’m curious - do you believe these directly cultural measures would/do show the same thing the blog author claims (to my mind, without any evidence) the unemployment figures show? Secondly, your use of the words “helpful too” implies that you believe unemployment rates are a **better** cultural measure than language proficiency, marriage rates by ethnic/cultural origin, temple/church/synagogue/mosque/other attendance, and communications rate with individuals of different cultural affiliation. Is that the case, and if so, why? I have difficulty imagining anyone would believe that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sherwood-anderson-pompous-and-dishonest/591122.md?page=1)