# Shin bet to (Ex) pres. Jimmy Carter "Drop Dead!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452 "2008-04-15T15:40:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/221 "2008-04-21T16:37:58Z")
Thank you **Jack**! I’ve now written, revised and discarded several drafts as being too snarky. I am certainly _happy_ to discuss the datapoints and various interpretations of them, all while making no effort at all to hide what I believe the most likely cohesive explanations are, and why I feel that alternate explanations do not have the explanatory of predictive power of my analysis. (This is GD after all, why would I be posting here if I wasn’t willing to do that?) I’m more than bored, however, with being accused of being a ‘Zionist traitor’ or being “sly” and not having the “courage” to state my position. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/222 "2008-04-21T16:39:36Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] You on the other hand seem more interested in promoting the idea that vehement criticism of Carter must be part of some grand strategy to denounce any critics of Israel as anti-Semites. Which no one has done here or at any time on this board. [/QUOTE] No, not expressly. It’s all very carefully _implied_. Usually. **Malthus** went so far as to quote an off-the-board source speculating that “Carter doesn’t like Jews very much.” [QUOTE=Jackmannii] I think he has.While I’m not sure that Carter deserves this level of condemnation, **Finn** and others _have_ presented evidence to support their arguments. [/QUOTE] And I’m asking them to bring those arguments to whatever they regard as the logical and _ultimate_ conclusion, for all to see. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/223 "2008-04-21T16:44:34Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] **Mr. Moto** , I want to go straight to the heart of the matter. I want Carter’s critics to tell us their view of his ultimate goal. [/QUOTE] I think he wants peace in the Middle East. Unfortunately, he has convinced himself that Israel is the reason there isn’t any. I would respectfully disagree that he wishes the destruction of Israel. The one-sidedness of his views means that he pushes for one side to make concessions regardless of the effect on the security of the other side. As mentioned, he is making the same mistake with the terrorists as he did with the Soviet Union before Christmas 1979. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/224 "2008-04-21T16:48:07Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] **Mr. Moto** , I want to go straight to the heart of the matter. I want Carter’s critics to tell us their view of his ultimate goal. [/QUOTE] And I’d like you to justify your view of him as just a peacemaker, instead of just reciting that word as boilerplate. But no matter. Carter is objectively pro-Palestinian, so much so that President Clinton, without question the American President under which the Palestinian people caught the most breaks, called his book fictitious. I mentioned before his work directly for Arafat - how do you explain this? The man is not a neutral party in this dispute. He seeks what he sees as justice for the Palestinian people. He may justify this as necessary to Israel’s survival, and in the abstract most Israelis would agree with him. They would diverge when Carter sided with the Palestinians against nearly any Israeli security measure, no matter how justified in the face of violence from Hamas or the radical factions of Fatah. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/225 "2008-04-21T16:58:24Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I think he wants peace in the Middle East. Unfortunately, he has convinced himself that Israel is the reason there isn’t any. I would respectfully disagree that he wishes the destruction of Israel. The one-sidedness of his views means that he pushes for one side to make concessions regardless of the effect on the security of the other side. As mentioned, he is making the same mistake with the terrorists as he did with the Soviet Union before Christmas 1979. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Thank you, **Shodan**. This is a logical and reasonable conclusion, which acknowledges, at least, that Carter seeks peace. I do not say that Carter is always right in the way he pursues that goal. What galls me (and if you’ll go back, you’ll see this was the object of my first post in this thread) is **Finn** ’s continuing suggestion that Carter has some other hidden and sinister motive. **Mr. Moto** , Carter may well believe that justice is on the Palestinian side of this dispute, and that Israel must make concessions to achieve peace. But peace is still the goal. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/226 "2008-04-21T17:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I think he wants peace in the Middle East. Unfortunately, he has convinced himself that Israel is the reason there isn’t any. [/quote] This is, perhaps, somewhat in line with what I’m saying. In Carter’s view, he may even feel that hamstringing Israel and empowering Hamas (and Islamic Jihad, and Fatah, and…), while putting Hamas within rocket range of Tel Aviv, would ultimately lead to peace and justice. I think he may very well be willing to make an omlet by ‘breaking a few eggs’, and is willing to sacrifice Israeli lives on the hope that Hamas might eventually be reformed. I know for a fact that he is willing to lie, distort and fabricate in order to make it seem that there are no real security concerns that Israel would have to worry about, were his demands implemented. However, I believe that such a situation cannot accurately be called an agenda for peace, even if Carter calls it that, or even if he actually believes it. I, personally, would argue that Carter places what he views as justice above what I think most people would view as peace. In other words, it is an agenda for what he sees as _justice_, with peace perhaps being a secondary or tertiary consequence, and certainly not his primary aim. I cannot find a coherent scenario whereby putting Hamas within rocket range of every single Israel city, before making sure that Hamas was fully pledged to peace, could be seen as making peace as a primary concern. And as I’ve argued, I feel that the facts support a verdict that if his plan for “justice” were to be put through, that it would result in the exact opposite of peace. [QUOTE=Shodan] I would respectfully disagree that he wishes the destruction of Israel. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure if this was directed at me… but just in case there’s any confusion, I want to clear up that I am not claiming that Carter wants to destroy Israel. And despite spoke’s bizarre insistence that he finally wants to see what’s been posted several times in this thread, in at least one post that he responded to and quoted from to boot… I have also said, and maintain, that I cannot hazard a guess as to Carter’s long term/emotional/intellectual goals, because of his pattern of deception. I do know that I am not at all comfortable taking him at his word, and that means that I don’t know what his real goals are. He’s clearly strongly anti-Israel, or perhaps more accurately, an ideologue, a partisan for Palestinian claims. That much is certain. But as to what he ultimately wants beyond sacrificing Israel’s security for his view of “justice”? I’m really not sure. Honestly and truly, just not sure. And I won’t pretend otherwise simply because insults are cast at me for not buying into Carter’s PR. On preview, I see I agree to a large extent with **Moto**. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/227 "2008-04-21T17:17:50Z")
From ABC News: [Carter-Hamas Talks May Bear Fruit](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4693208&page=1). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/228 "2008-04-21T17:18:22Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] What galls me (and if you’ll go back, you’ll see this was the object of my first post in this thread) is **Finn** ’s continuing suggestion that Carter has some other hidden and sinister motive. [/QUOTE] You mean, I take it: what galls you is your imaginary, spurious, strawman-based flight of fantasy that I’m doing any such thing? Despite me spilling copious amounts of ink, in at least one post you quoted from and respond to, spelling out exactly what I’m saying? Just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page here. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/229 "2008-04-21T17:23:32Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] You mean, I take it: what galls you is your imaginary, spurious, strawman-based flight of fantasy that I’m doing any such thing? Despite me spilling copious amounts of ink, in at least one post you quoted from and respond to, spelling out exactly what I’m saying? Just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page here. You can start addressing what I’m actually saying any time now. [/QUOTE] Here’s what you actually said: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > At worst, some folks have a real, and a vile, agenda to peddle. Carter… I think he probably falls into the latter category. Between that and all the David Duke quotes, I can’t _imagine_ anyone thought poor little innocent you were trying to convince us Carter is an anti-Semite with a hidden agenda. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/230 "2008-04-21T17:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] From ABC News: [Carter-Hamas Talks May Bear Fruit](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4693208&page=1). [/QUOTE] … Could’ve sworn there was already a post on that “fruit”. [One that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9713124&postcount=213), maybe, you already quoted and responded to. But an interesting hack job of an article you provide with that cite. > [@](#): > > In a separate news conference in Damascus later in the day, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal said that while Hamas would accept a Palesitnian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it would not recognize Israel. > > But Hamas also proposed a 10-year truce with Israel if it withdraws from lands it seized in 1967, an implicit recognition of Israel. So they explicitly say they won’t recognize Israel, but saying they’ll agree to a truce is somehow an “implicit” recognition of Israel? You do recognize how very, very laughable that is, right? Especially with Hamas’ actual record of talking about what a truce, or more accurately hudna, [means to them](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=28&x_article=65)? > [@](#): > > In Hamas ideology a truce can be offered to the enemies of Islam only for tactical reasons — principally when the enemy is strong and the Muslims are weak. The truce period is to be used to change the balance of forces. When this is accomplished, and the stage has been set for a Muslim victory, the truce must be broken. This strategy follows the practice and teachings of Islam’s founder, the Prophet Mohammed, who arranged a 10 year truce with the Quraysh tribe in 628, when his forces were not yet powerful enough to defeat the Quraysh. The truce has been known since then as the “Treaty of Hudaybiyah,” after the site near the Quraysh city of Mecca where it was negotiated. Less than 2 years later, when Muslim forces were sufficiently strong, the Quraysh were defeated by the Muslims and Mecca captured. The Arabic term used to describe the truce with the Quraysh was hudna — the same word used by Hamas in their “truce” offers to Israel. > > With this historical background the words of the recently released Hamas leader, Sheikh Yasin, can be properly understood: > > ``` > It is impermissible for Muslims to stop jihad as long as an Islamic territory is occupied, only in [ie except for] cases of truce with the enemy and until a sufficient force for liberation is gathered. (interview in al- Muharrir (Paris) published on 26 December 1994) > > ``` > > In a later interview Sheikh Yasin declared: > > ``` > Reconciliation with the Jews is a crime ... If reconciliation means a truce and a cessation of fighting for a specified period of time, Islam allows the imam [leader] of the Muslims to undertake such a reconciliation if he believes that the enemy is strong and the Muslims are weak and need time to prepare and buildup. I single out Palestine in particular, because it is a land of holy places and an Islamic religious endowment (waqf) that cannot be conceded by any ruler, president or king. Nor may any generation concede it, because it is the property of all generations of Muslims until the Day of Judgement. > As for the permitted duration of the truce, many Islamic jurists are of the opinion that it must not exceed 10 years.(Filastin al-Muslimah (London), March 1995) > > ``` > > Within the same historical context other Hamas leaders have also spoken on the conditions for a truce. For example, in an interview in al-Hayat (London) published on 11 March 1996, the Hamas representative in Jordan, Muhammad Nazal, answered the question of what Hamas wanted in return for stopping its “military action” (ie, suicide bombings): > > ``` > An end to the occupation. Our political programme is based on the premise that there will be resistance as long as there is occupation. The occupation is still there... The search for a solution must be dissociated from the Oslo agreements. > > ``` > > Of course, by occupation, Sheikh Yasin and Mr. Nazal are referring to all of “Palestine,” not just the West Bank and Gaza. That is, while they are not against a tactical, temporary truce, their attacks will cease permanently only when Israel ceases to exist. > > Even with that caveat, truces are offered and then disavowed by Hamas on a regular basis. Thus, while Reuters headlined a “conditional truce” offered by Hamas on 20 June 1996, on 21 June 1996 al-Ayyam (Ramallah) reported that the Hamas representative in Lebanon termed the truce story “fabricated and baseless,” and that “Hamas sources in Gaza” also disavowed any truce offering. > > The most recent claims of Hamas “moderation” and willingness to reach a truce have also been quickly disavowed by senior Hamas leaders. For example, interviewed by telephone from Gaza on October 6th, Hamas spokesman Abdel Rantissi stated: > > ``` > ... we are not thinking of this [a truce] at all, nor have we thought of it. I was surprised by yesterday's reports on this point. This is utterly untrue. We have never contemplated such an issue. There are great causes, there is the cause of Palestine, a holy land and Islamic property. All Muslims must liberate Palestine. We will pursue this line until the last Zionist occupier leaves the Palestinian land. (Radio Monte Carlo, Paris, as translated by BBCSWB, 8 October 1997) > > ``` So sure, if we forget about Hamas’ history, ideology, terminology with a current, explicit statement that they don’t recognize Israel that’s spun into "implicit’ recognition since they say they’ll wait ten years before going back to trying to ethnically cleanse Israel. :rolleyes: Edit: > [@spoke-](#): > > Between that and all the David Duke quotes, I can’t imagine anyone thought poor little innocent you were trying to convince us Carter is an anti-Semite with a hidden agenda. Mmm hmm. You mean, the David Duke quotes that, in context, had nothing to do with Carter? The quotes that, in context, were a direct reply to **Argent** (not “out of the blue” as you so confusedly stated), and were about the acceptability of certain phrases in public discourse? Those quotes? And, of course, you missed, in a post you quoted from and responded to, where I defined _exactly_ what I found to be vile, despite your amazing lack of comprehension? Kay. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/231 "2008-04-21T17:49:17Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] **Mr. Moto** , Carter may well believe that justice is on the Palestinian side of this dispute, and that Israel must make concessions to achieve peace. But peace is still the goal. [/QUOTE] Okay. Let’s accept for a moment, for the sake of argument, that this is indeed true. If Carter is indeed a pro-Palestinian advocate (and even, perhaps, pro-Hamas) why should Israel accept him as some sort of neutral broker or facilitator? They certainly are under no obligation to do that, and they seem to find the notion frankly quite distasteful. Aren’t they entitled to that opinion? If Carter is entitled to talk with whoever he likes in this matter, doesn’t this apply to other leaders and even ordinary citizens in the region? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/232 "2008-04-21T18:16:25Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] This is, perhaps, somewhat in line with what I’m saying. In Carter’s view, he may even feel that hamstringing Israel and empowering Hamas (and Islamic Jihad, and Fatah, and…), while putting Hamas within rocket range of Tel Aviv, would ultimately lead to peace and justice. I think he may very well be willing to make an omlet by ‘breaking a few eggs’, and is willing to sacrifice Israeli lives on the hope that Hamas might eventually be reformed. I know for a fact that he is willing to lie, distort and fabricate in order to make it seem that there are no real security concerns that Israel would have to worry about, were his demands implemented. [/quote] I think Carter has rounded the bend of “dangerously naive” and is headed deep into “willful ignorance” territory. But I bet he is sincere in his belief that Israel’s concerns for her safety are exaggerated, and that Hamas would make nice if Israel stopped ‘provoking’ her by, well, refusing to participate in Carter’s _folie a dieux_ and acting to secure her own safety. Although I wonder if Carter (based on his Sunday School quotes and what he said to Meir) actually harbors some notion that Israel is being punished by God by being subject to terrorist attacks and the intifada, because they have not “turned again to the Lord” as the Old Testament says. It may even be possible that Carter sees himself as a quasi-prophetic figure in preaching to the Jews what he sees as the will of God. I don’t know that he even would have a clear idea of what Israel should do, apart from accepting his ideas wholesale and damn the consequences. > [@](#): > > However, I believe that such a situation cannot accurately be called an agenda for peace, even if Carter calls it that, or even if he actually believes it. I, personally, would argue that Carter places what he views as justice above what I think most people would view as peace. I think all he wants is a peace treaty, regardless of the subsequent consequences. The Camp David accords are pretty much the only undoubted achievement of Carter’s rather ineffectual tenure, and thus Carter would seize on the notion of a treaty as vindication for his ideas. > [@](#): > > I cannot find a coherent scenario whereby putting Hamas within rocket range of every single Israel city, before making sure that Hamas was fully pledged to peace, could be seen as making peace as a primary concern. Nor can I, and it is difficult to keep a clear distinction between “objectively pro-Palestinian” (as **Mr. Moto** puts it) and actual malice towards Israel. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas, and the more warmly you support those who are actually dedicated to the destruction of Israel, the harder it is to distinguish yourself from them. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure if this was directed at me… No, no one in particular. > [@](#): > > I have also said, and maintain, that I cannot hazard a guess as to Carter’s long term/emotional/intellectual goals, because of his pattern of deception. As mentioned, I think Carter has convinced himself of who the bad guys are, and the rest of his position is based on that. > [@](#): > > On preview, I see I agree to a large extent with **Moto**. I find very often that this is a good sign. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/233 "2008-04-21T18:24:03Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I find very often that this is a good sign. [/QUOTE] My wife would recommend that you knock off the bourbon and go back to beer. But thanks. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/234 "2008-04-21T18:30:37Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] No, not expressly. It’s all very carefully _implied_. Usually. **Malthus** went so far as to quote an off-the-board source speculating that “Carter doesn’t like Jews very much.” And I’m asking them to bring those arguments to whatever they regard as the logical and _ultimate_ conclusion, for all to see. [/QUOTE] Wait a cotton picking minute here. Are you claiming that I’m just out to do a character assasination of Carter, by somehow “insinuating” he’s an anti-semite? Because I quoted a source where someone, reading Carter’s incredible statements, came to the conclusion he didn’t like Jews? My position (for which I’ve quoted copious evidence) is that various things that Carter has published demonstrate that he has a religious motivation for his non-objective stance on the Mideast senario. This was in direct reply to a challege, comming from you I believe, to state exactly _what_ we believe motivates Carter _other_ than anti-semitism. Now you are up to your tricks again, demanding we state what we think his "ultimate conclusion is “for all to see”. Why do I get the feeling that, no matter what we answer, it will be further proof of “we all just want to smear Carter”? Well, I’m willing to answer: I believe that Carter thinks that Israel must make every concession asked, because it is a land of special Biblical concern - and unless and until it returns to its true religious path, it can never prosper (and should not be aided to prosper by others). This is more or less exactly what he said to Golda, and I for one see no reason to disbelieve his own statement on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/235 "2008-04-21T18:42:53Z")
First off, thank you very much. I’m surprised that none of Carter’s defenders have engaged in a rational analysis of his motives, and it takes someone who is critical of Carter to meet me half way. My hat is off to you. [QUOTE=Shodan] I think Carter has rounded the bend of “dangerously naive” and is headed deep into “willful ignorance” territory. But I bet he is sincere in his belief that Israel’s concerns for her safety are exaggerated, and that Hamas would make nice if Israel stopped ‘provoking’ her by, well, refusing to participate in Carter’s _folie a dieux_ and acting to secure her own safety. [/quote] Perhaps… I can see how that argument would be made. But I really can’t fully wrap my mind around just how deep a well of willful ignorance Carter would have to be drawing on, especially since he’s been there. I mean, for instance, take the “no Israelis killed by Hamas since 2004” claim. Only a few things are possible, as I see it. -Carter doesn’t care about the truth, at all, and so doesn’t even take the time to learn the facts, just makes them up. This, I think, would be even _worse_ than him knowing the facts and deliberately getting them wrong. -Carter knew that there had been attacks, but felt his story and his agenda would better be served by claiming that there were no attacks, and thus casting the Israeli government as irrational, warmongering rejectionists. -Carter vaguely remembered something, and instead of taking 30 seconds to google, just went with his ‘gut’. And I do mean 30 seconds, a google search for “Hamas takes responsibility 2004” has [this](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/-Homemade-_Rockets$.asp)as the third hit. -Jimmy Carter is senile, and has no clue what the fuck is going on. I can’t help but find the second of the four possibilities to be far more persuasive, although I can accept that others find other possibilities more likely (although, of course, I still think that they’re wrong 😉 ). Have I missed any possibilities? [QUOTE=Shodan] Although I wonder if Carter (based on his Sunday School quotes and what he said to Meir) actually harbors some notion that Israel is being punished by God by being subject to terrorist attacks and the intifada, because they have not “turned again to the Lord” as the Old Testament says. It may even be possible that Carter sees himself as a quasi-prophetic figure in preaching to the Jews what he sees as the will of God. I don’t know that he even would have a clear idea of what Israel should do, apart from accepting his ideas wholesale and damn the consequences. [/quote] I’d say that is a possible, and maybe even a plausible analysis… but again, I’m not quite sure what he really thinks and what the contents of his mind are when he’s alone with his soul at 3:00 a.m. on sleepless nights. [QUOTE=Shodan] I think all he wants is a peace treaty, regardless of the subsequent consequences. The Camp David accords are pretty much the only undoubted achievement of Carter’s rather ineffectual tenure, and thus Carter would seize on the notion of a treaty as vindication for his ideas. [/quote] See, I can certainly agree with that (with the caveat that he believes that a peace treaty can be reached by hamstringing Israel). However, I’d also hasten to add that supporting a _peace treaty_ does not mean you actually support _peace_, especially since all facts point to such a treaty being a sham unless groups like Hamas actually wanted an end to violence, or were successfully marginalized and defanged. That, in a nutshell, is my point about not taking him at his word. As I said above, I simply cannot wrap my mind around the degree of willful ignorance it would take for Carter to be quite that clueless. I think that supporting a “peace treaty” which would be more observed in the breach, puts paid to any claims of being an advocate for peace. I simply cannot credit Carter, unless he’s senile, with actually being so unaware of the situation that he thinks a peace treaty with Hamas as it currently exists, would be anything but a sham. It’s one thing for people on a message board who don’t know a lot about the situation to talk about how misunderstood Hamas is. It’s quite another for Carter, who’s actually been there, and would have seen Hamas recruiting, and glorification of suicide bombers, and incitement to genocide, and spewing blatant anti-Semitism. The most convincing analysis, to me, is that Carter knows what Hamas is, knows that a peace treaty wouldn’t bring peace, but is prepared to then go and blame Israel for the peace treaty failing. Perhaps, as you’ve said, thinking that he’s securing his legacy in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/236 "2008-04-21T19:24:00Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] I mean, for instance, take the “no Israelis killed by Hamas since 2004” claim. Only a few things are possible, as I see it. -Carter doesn’t care about the truth, at all, and so doesn’t even take the time to learn the facts, just makes them up. This, I think, would be even _worse_ than him knowing the facts and deliberately getting them wrong. -Carter knew that there had been attacks, but felt his story and his agenda would better be served by claiming that there were no attacks, and thus casting the Israeli government as irrational, warmongering rejectionists. -Carter vaguely remembered something, and instead of taking 30 seconds to google, just went with his ‘gut’. And I do mean 30 seconds, a google search for “Hamas takes responsibility 2004” has [this](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/-Homemade-_Rockets$.asp)as the third hit. -Jimmy Carter is senile, and has no clue what the fuck is going on. I can’t help but find the second of the four possibilities to be far more persuasive, although I can accept that others find other possibilities more likely (although, of course, I still think that they’re wrong 😉 ). Have I missed any possibilities? [/quote] I can only think of one, off the top of my head - Hamas or its sympathizers told him, and he believed it. > [@](#): > > See, I can certainly agree with that (with the caveat that he believes that a peace treaty can be reached by hamstringing Israel). However, I’d also hasten to add that supporting a _peace treaty_ does not mean you actually support _peace_, especially since all facts point to such a treaty being a sham unless groups like Hamas actually wanted an end to violence, or were successfully marginalized and defanged. No argument here - I wouldn’t trust Hamas any further than I could drop-kick them, and Carter’s notion that it is Israel who is to blame for the intransigence of the terrorists would be funny if less were at stake. > [@](#): > > That, in a nutshell, is my point about not taking him at his word. As I said above, I simply cannot wrap my mind around the degree of willful ignorance it would take for Carter to be quite that clueless. You’re young, or at least younger than I am. > [@](#): > > \*\*Wizard’s First Rule - > > People are stupid. Given the right motivation, almost anyone can be made to believe almost anything.\*\* And unfortunately, the idea that there is always a simple answer to a difficult problem is a characteristically American delusion. Carter is an old man, and he wants desperately to believe in himself as a great statesman, and his Presidency as something other than a bad joke. If a peace treaty were signed, I doubt if Carter would live long enough to see it breached. Maybe that’s enough for him, as [it was for another figure in the Old Testament he used to teach.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=20&verse=19&version=31&context=verse) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/237 "2008-04-22T00:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I can only think of one, off the top of my head - Hamas or its sympathizers told him, and he believed it. [/quote] Hmmm, well done, I hadn’t even considered that. It would, of course, make Jimmuh a rather incurious fellow. It’d also make him a shill for Hamas. That might very well be, I’ll gnaw on it some more. > [@shodan](#): > > Carter is an old man, and he wants desperately to believe in himself as a great statesman, and his Presidency as something other than a bad joke. If a peace treaty were signed, I doubt if Carter would live long enough to see it breached. Could quite possibly be the case. I still think he knows the score, but perhaps you’re right. In any case, you’ve done yeoman’s service and at least constructed a cohesive analysis s to what might be driving Carter. To be fair, I also owe **Malthus** an apology as he certainly did the same, just not in response to me. I had forgotten about his contribution earlier in the thread, and I didn’t mean to exclude him. Anybody else who I’ve missed, who made an attempt to provide a cogent framework in which to view his actions: thank you very much for your contribution to this thread. And my apologies for not mentioning you by name. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/238 "2008-04-22T00:21:16Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Hmmm, well done, I hadn’t even considered that. It would, of course, make Jimmuh a rather incurious fellow. It’d also make him a shill for Hamas. That might very well be, I’ll gnaw on it some more. [/quote] As proof, I would refer back to Carter’s recent pronouncement, following his meeting with Hamas in Egypt, that the situation in Gaza was one where Gazans are being “starved to death” and that this is worse than “the poorest parts of Africa” - in spite of not having been there (and the fact that the UN organization on the scene isn’t claiming any state of “starvation”). And of course that this is all Israel’s fault and a “crime” on Israel’s part. > **[CNSNews](https://newsbusters.org/cnsnews)** > > Welcome to NewsBusters, a project of the Media Research Center (MRC), America’s leading media watchdog in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias. It would appear that, to Carter, Hamas is a reliable source of fact, and in fact more reliable than any other - or at least, he seemingly has no problems parroting what they tell him. > [@](#): > > Could quite possibly be the case. I still think he knows the score, but perhaps you’re right. In any case, you’ve done yeoman’s service and at least constructed a cohesive analysis s to what might be driving Carter. To be fair, I also owe **Malthus** an apology as he certainly did the same, just not in response to me. I had forgotten about his contribution earlier in the thread, and I didn’t mean to exclude him. Hey, no prob. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/239 "2008-04-22T00:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] As proof, I would refer back to Carter’s recent pronouncement, following his meeting with Hamas in Egypt, that the situation in Gaza was one where Gazans are being “starved to death” and that this is worse than “the poorest parts of Africa” - in spite of not having been there (and the fact that the UN organization on the scene isn’t claiming any state of “starvation”). And of course that this is all Israel’s fault and a “crime” on Israel’s part. > **[CNSNews](https://newsbusters.org/cnsnews)** > > Welcome to NewsBusters, a project of the Media Research Center (MRC), America’s leading media watchdog in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias. It would appear that, to Carter, Hamas is a reliable source of fact, and in fact more reliable than any other - or at least, he seemingly has no problems parroting what they tell him. [/quote] That could very well be true. I have to admit, you and **Shodan** have at least put forward a case that’s made me question my interpretation… albeit not shaken my feeling that it’s the most likely explanation. I’d note, however, that although your link certainly does provide strong circumstantial evidence (unless I missed something?), it’s not necessarily clear that Hamas told him that and he repeated it, or it was a lie he’d been cooking up that he used, after the meeting, to deflect attention and the course of discussion from Hamas’ goals and agenda to his lie that Israel was trying to commit genocide upon the people of Gaza by starving them to death. Man, what I wouldn’t give to have been a fly on _that_ wall. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/240 "2008-04-22T03:49:27Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Between that and all the David Duke quotes, I can’t _imagine_ anyone thought poor little innocent you were trying to convince us Carter is an anti-Semite with a hidden agenda. [/QUOTE] So? What is your point? Of what importance to this discussion is the motivation of any poster? As a poster, I find your apparent desperate need to uncover hidden motivations in other posters to be unseemly. As Moderator, I find your attempts to uncover hidden motivations disruptive. This discussion is supposed to address the propriety of Shin Bet’s reaction to President Carter’s trip to Palestine (which would include an examination of Mr. Carter’s actions and words to which the Israelis may react). It has nothing to do with the “agendas” of any other poster. Debate the facts and logic of the posts. If a poster, of whatever persuasion, posts an error of fact or logic, challenge that post. If you feel an overwhelming need to delve into the psyches of other posters, do it by e-mail or in the Pit. [/Modding] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452.md?page=13)