# Shin bet to (Ex) pres. Jimmy Carter "Drop Dead!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452 "2008-04-15T15:40:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/261 "2008-04-23T04:28:48Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] I came into this thread only to challenge the suggestion that Carter had some sinister and hidden motive. That was and remains a vile suggestion. [/QUOTE] Well, to be fair, his support of Arafat and his identification with the Palestinian cause sure isn’t hidden. 😉 I don’t think Carter is sinister, for the record. Just horribly misguided and at times naive. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/262 "2008-04-23T04:47:53Z")
**spoke-** , hard to call solid evidence that Carter is saying things that are akin to a Hillary “misspeak” as “minutiae” … I tend to agree with the statement that one is better served by talking to an enemy than not but Carter is not talking for Israel and it is not his role to make that decision for Israel. I also wonder if that rule is always true: is it better for the US to talk to Bin Laden than not? In any case, Israel has every reason to feel that Carter’s current actions are not in Israel’s best interests in either the short or the long term. As to Carter’s motives … I don’t know but he reminds of the old days of Jesse Jackson … I think it is ego. He may really believe that Israel is just in the wrong and is therefore ready to unquestioningly accept “facts” that support that POV and to not see others. Or he may have other reasons for his biases. Maybe sinister maybe not. I can’t read his mind. But **Finn** has provided ample evidence that Carter is systematically ignoring evidence that goes against his perspective, choosing to accept “facts” given to him by Hamas that are not true according to other non-Israeli sources, and saying things that he should know are just untrue. Again, that hardly counts as “minutiae.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/263 "2008-04-23T04:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Thanks just the same, **Finn** , but life is too short to respond to your loaded questions and to battle you over minutae. [/quote] I, for one, am interested in debating this topic. That’s why I’m in GD. Perhaps if you’re not interested in debating, you’d feel comfortable yielding the floor so that someone who _did_ want to debate your side of the issue could feel more free to post? You might also want to more accurately describe the issues, if you want to debate them. Questions over why Carter lies so often, what the purpose of his lies are and whether or not he’s aware that his suggested path for a peace treaty would lead to the increased murder of Israelis are hardly “minutiae”. They’re well within the scope of the thread and you have steadfastly refused to engage with any of them, other than to handwave them away. If you want to claim that I’m asking something along the lines of “Is Carter still beating his wife?”, if behooves you to not just _allege_ that my questions are somehow unfair, but to actually _show_ that they are via _rational debate_ Whether or not Carter deliberately lied in order to make people think that Hamas was no threat, and thus his plans wouldn’t lead to Hamas murdering many more Israelis, is hardly a “quibble” or “minutiae”. Will you debate the meat of this issue, or even any tangents of this issue? [QUOTE=spoke-] Instead, I’ll state the obvious: You can’t make peace with your enemies without talking to them. [/quote] While that’s a nifty soundbyte, it’s also overly simplistic to the point of being a caricature of a reasonable argument, as well as being, factually wrong. Israel achieved peace with Egypt, for example, without even once having the faction that murdered Sadat for his ‘betrayal’, at the negotiating table. And Israel is **still** at peace with Egypt. So despite your false to facts reasoning, yes, you sure can make peace with your enemies without talking to all the factions that are within those enemy groups. And not only can a country in general do so, Israel in specific _has done so_ in the past. Soundbytes aside, can you give any actual, logical and/or factual reasons why Hamas couldn’t be marginalized and defanged? Can you give any logical/factual reasons, at all, to explain how including Hamas in negotiations _with Hamas as it is now_, would lead to anything even resembling peace? Can you give any logical/factual reasons, at all, to explain how, rather than the slow process of “understandings” that **DSeid** suggested, Carter’s “all at once” plans would do anything other than allow rockets to hit Tel Aviv? You may want to avoid my questions, which are based on 100% verifiable facts and fallacy free logic, as “loaded”… but that still doesn’t explain how letting Hamas have all the Iranian rockets it can import, and letting them get close enough to fire them at Tel Aviv, would lead to anything other than Hamas firing rockets at Tel Aviv. Can you provide a fact-based, logical case that rockets hitting Tel Aviv wouldn’t be the obvious consequence? [QUOTE=spoke-] I haven’t seen any _convincing_ alternative “agenda” for Carter. Therefore, I believe his agenda is as he says it is: peace. [/quote] Which, of course, is an evasion and not a real response at all. **Shodan, Malthus** and I have all provided numerous facts, and connected them with logic, in order to explain what Carter’s likely agenda(s) are, and why they are inconsistent with his PR to one degree or another. Simply stating that you don’t find them convincing is not a **rebuttal**. We are in GD, where you are supposed to **rebut** things you don’t agree with, especially well cited, well reasoned things you don’t disagree with. Do you think you’re convincing the peanut gallery, if your argument against facts and logic is to neither disprove the facts or show the logic to be fallacious, but simply to repeat your opinion that they’re incorrect… over and over again? I, for example, have pointed out what the virtually certain consequence of allowing Hamas within rocket range of Tel Aviv would be, and how that result could not be called “peace” by any stretch of the imagination. And yet, you still claim that Carter’s agenda, which would see Hamas within rocket range of Tel Aviv, is one that has \*peace \*as it’s goal rather than, as **Shodan** pointed out, merely a peace _treaty_. That is not a _rebuttal_, it is merely a repeated _denial_. [QUOTE=spoke-] I do not say that his tactics in pursuit of that goal will be effective. [/quote] You have again evaded the fact that it is a virtual certainty that the results his goals would bring about, namely, rockets hitting Tel Aviv, would be not _peace_, but _war_. You have evaded the fact that it is extremely unlikely that Carter doesn’t know this, and that if he really doesn’t know it, it’s because he’s acting as Hamas’ totally uncritical and uncaring shill. Explain how a man who knows, or damn well should know, that his proposed course of action would lead to rockets hitting a major city, is really interested in peace. Explain how the Israeli government/intelligence service wasn’t perfectly right to snub him, since his plans would lead to rockets hitting Tel Aviv and as such, he doesn’t deserve anybody’s time or faciltation. Please actually _debate_ this point if you want to disagree with what facts and logic show us about Carter’s agenda. [QUOTE=spoke-] I do not say that he is an evenhanded broker. [/quote] Explain how a non-evenhanded broker, who habitually lies on the issue and whose agenda can be shown to have the result of rockets raining down on Tel Aviv, is an appropriate choice for a negotiator. Explain why Israel wasn’t perfectly in the right to snub a non-evenhanded broker whose tactics would certainly not be effective at accomplishing anything even resembling peace. [QUOTE=spoke-] I came into this thread only to challenge the suggestion that Carter had some sinister and hidden motive. [/QUOTE] Well, we’re all _waiting_. Get to challenging it. Several of us have laid our facts out on the table, connected them via explicit chains of logic, and said exactly what we believe and what we’re unsure of regarding Carter’s actual goals, ideology and methods. You’ve just offered rote denials. This is GD after all. If you’re going to challenge something here, you either need to attack the facts its predicated on, or the logic that connects the facts. You have steadfastly refused to do either. Can you A) show any rational, factual reasons why anybody shouldn’t call bullshit on claims that Carter wants _peace_ rather than just a peace _treaty_? B) show any rational, factual reasons why anybody shouldn’t call bullshit on claims that Carter has honestly related his goals and agenda, if virtually every single major point he makes is propped up by deception, fabrication and deliberate omission? C) show any rational, factual reasons why someone who lies to support his agenda, cannot be trusted to accurately relate his agenda, supports a supposed goal of ‘peace’ that would lead to rockets hitting Tel Aviv and is obviously a raging partisan for one side… should be considered as a negotiator in a situation like this? D) show any rational, factual reasons why Carter not only lies so often, but steadfastly refuses to correct his mistakes, methodology and/or ideology… other than that he’s deliberately using deception in order to sway people to a course that they would almost definitely not be supporting, were the facts clear? E) show any rational, factual reasons why Carter’s lies, almost without exception, aim at deceiving people to think that groups like Hamas are no threat at all, while Israel’s leaders are warmongering rejectionists for not accepting Hamas as honest partners for peace? If you can’t debate the issues, and can only repeat your position while your content-free argument gets clobbered with facts and logic, time and again… why not bow out of a GD thread and see if someone who _does_ want to debate might not argue your position in your stead? On preview: damn you **DSeid** , you said it in fewer words and more eloquently than I. 😛 to you I say, sir! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/264 "2008-04-23T04:58:11Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] I also wonder if that rule is always true: is it better for the US to talk to Bin Laden than not? [/QUOTE] Hamas has been democratically elected. Bin Laden has not. I see that as a distinction worth noting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/265 "2008-04-23T05:14:19Z")
And as long as I’m at it: [QUOTE=DSeid] I tend to agree with the statement that one is better served by talking to an enemy than not but Carter is not talking for Israel and it is not his role to make that decision for Israel. I also wonder if that rule is always true: is it better for the US to talk to Bin Laden than not? [/QUOTE] Or for another example of a type of ‘peace’: in America during the age of segregation and explicit bigotry, even though they were often elected to positions of power and continued to be for some time (see David Duke), the KKK was never a part of the civil rights struggle. Blacks never ‘negotiated’ with the KKK for the right to be equal. And yet, comprehensive civil rights laws were still passed. Likewise, there is no reason to assume that, as an ironclad rule, Israel must make Hamas part of the struggle for peace. Israel has no need to “negotiate” with Hamas for the right to continue breathing and/or not be ethnically cleansed. And still, there is a possibility that a comprehensive peace deal can be reached. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/266 "2008-04-23T06:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Hamas has been democratically elected. Bin Laden has not. [/QUOTE] And if he had been? Would you speak with Osama Bin Laden if he were the democratically elected president of Afganistan? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/267 "2008-04-23T12:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] And if he had been? Would you speak with Osama Bin Laden if he were the democratically elected president of Afganistan? [/QUOTE] That’s a moot point. If bin Laden were elected president of Canada, right next door to the US, then I would think maybe we should talk to him. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/268 "2008-04-23T13:57:33Z")
So no debate, just denial? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/269 "2008-04-24T14:40:18Z")
[Three interesting bits of news today:](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/24/headlines#5) > [@](#): > > **Israeli Blockade Could Halt UN Shipments to Gaza** > The UN is warning it could be forced to suspend humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip today because of the Israeli blockade. The United Nations Works and Relief Agency is responsible for feeding nearly two-thirds of Gaza’s 1.4 million people. Agency officials say they expect trucks to run out of fuel this afternoon. Israel has intensified military attacks and economic isolation of the Gaza Strip since Hamas took control last June. Hamas meanwhile says its awaiting an Israeli response to its latest offer of a ceasefire in the Occupied Territories. > > **Israel: Bush Secretly Endorsed Settlement Expansion** > Meanwhile the Israeli government is claiming the Bush administration has secretly endorsed its long-standing policy of expanding West Bank settlements it ultimately intends to keep. This week Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said President Bush agreed to let Israel expand settlements even though his so-called peace plan officially calls for a freeze. Ariel Sharon’s former chief of staff Dov Weisglass also said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice secretly reaffirmed White House approval of West Bank settlement expansion in the spring of 2005, right before Israel dismantled its settlements in the Gaza Strip. Israel’s so-called withdrawal from Gaza was widely seen as an attempt to solidify its hold over the West Bank. U.S. officials are denying Weisglass’ account of a secret agreement. The news comes as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is in Washington today to meet Bush administration officials. Abbas has criticized the U.S. for not blocking Israeli settlement activity despite the resumption of peace talks. > > **Syria Says Israel Has Offered to Return Golan** > Meanwhile the Syrian government is claiming Israel has offered to return the Golan Heights in return for a full peace deal. A Syrian cabinet minister said Israel relayed the offer through Turkey. Israel occupied the Golan Heights during the 1967 war. That last one is **very** interesting. As I understand it, Israel annexed the Golan Heights because they are heights – the Syrians used to lob artillery shells into Galilee from there, it’s the perfect location. If Israel’s ready to give it up, they must think Syria is no longer a significant military threat. Which is encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/270 "2008-04-24T14:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] If bin Laden were elected president of Canada, right next door to the US, then I would think maybe we should talk to him. [/QUOTE] At his trial after we occupy Canada, sure. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/271 "2008-04-24T15:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That last one is **very** interesting. As I understand it, Israel annexed the Golan Heights because they are heights – the Syrians used to lob artillery shells into Galilee from there, it’s the perfect location. If Israel’s ready to give it up, they must think Syria is no longer a significant military threat. Which is encouraging. [/QUOTE] It was pretty well known (although never publicly admitted) that Israel and Syria had been in serious discussion of the issue for several years, even before the elder al-Assad died. The WTC/Pentagon attacks appeared to have halted those discussions. I am glad that it appears the discussions continued. (And, no, I am not ignoring the fact that Syria has, in fact, played a disruptive role in Lebanon or that al Qaida recruits certainly entered Iraq through Syria. I am simply pointing out that Israel, at least, appears to understand _Realpolitik_ well enough to consider engaging certain enemies in talks–even if the talks have to remain secret. It is a lesson that Bush and Company could learn.) I doubt that any similar talks are occurring with Hamas, but then the more Bush/Rice-like leaders of Hamas do not seem to believe that long term peace is in their interest in the way that the younger al-Assad recognizes. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/272 "2008-04-24T19:10:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Choose your own caption. By now you will have realised that **Weirddave** has declined to supply the evidence on which he claimed that Hamas has a coherent plan to liquidate the entire Jewish ethnicity of Israel. To wit genocide. Being as that’s a large claim, some plain and unambiguous evidence was doubtless his source. [/QUOTE] Sure. It’s right in their charter, links to which have been posted numerous times in this forum. Apparently, you’ve never bothered to follow any of them and read the source material for yourself ([Here’s another chance](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm)), but I realize that clicking on links and reading and comprehending what is cached there can be a long, hard process, so I’ll provide you with some excerpts: > [@The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)](#): > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. > > The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. > > There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. > > After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. Hmm. “obliterate”…“Jihad”…“Imperialist Zionists expansion(I’m compressing a couple together here)”..etc… Gee, you’re right, my classification of the aims of Hamas as genocide was way off, what was I thinking? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/273 "2008-04-24T19:21:39Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] You seem to have PM’s disabled, I think. If you’d like a bit of the straight dope on this tangent, please either enable PM’s or confirm that you don’t mind receiving emails. Cheers. [/QUOTE] Hmmm. I’ll check. Still kinda new here, never got a PM before (here). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/274 "2008-04-24T19:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] You seem to have PM’s disabled, I think. If you’d like a bit of the straight dope on this tangent, please either enable PM’s or confirm that you don’t mind receiving emails. Cheers. [/QUOTE] PM’s are now enabled. I have received email from other members here before, though. Thanks for any info. This Israel/USA/Arabia Love Triangle is the singular most polarizing, passionate and deadly topic of our era. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/275 "2008-04-24T19:42:42Z")
Yes but, you see **Dave** , they don’t _really_ want to commit genocide as they already believe that all the world’s Jews are dead already. Which of course isn’t racist either, as it’s only due to that evil Zionist controlled US media that anybody would even _consider_ hating all the Jews on the planet to be a racist position. Obviously, believing that Jews are human beings who deserve the right to life just shows how very racist some people are… against Palestinians! It all becomes clear now. Personally, I think it’d serve much the same purpose if folks just responded with [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356405) (long dead) Pit thread. Even though the thread hasn’t been updated with more recent comments, I think it sums up the situation rather well. But at the same time, I understand the desire to clear up obvious factual inaccuracies that have the possibility of misleading people, and I grok the tendency to keep tonguing a sore tooth, no matter how annoying it is when you do it. Thanks for fighting the good fight though. More power to you. I assume that most people aren’t fooled by sevastopol’s apologetics for genocidal, racist maniacs, but your path is probably wise in the long run, as well. If even one lurker is prevented from reading those sorts of posts and coming away thinking “Gee, Hamas really are just freedom fighters. Why has the Zionist controlled media and ZOG cast them as bad guys? It must be because they’re racists!” Well… then you will have made a real difference in the fight against ignorance. My hat is off to you, I don’t have the kind of stamina to keep engaging with that poster on repeated claims of that nature. On preview: (what does ETA stand for, anyways?) **FoieGrasIsEvil** , I’ll be happy to expand a bit in a PM that makes the history of some arguments on the Dope a bit clearer. It may take me a few hours, as I’ve got some other stuff to get done first. I generally prefer not to email people, as some folks might not be quite so happy with unsolicited emails as unsolicited PM’s, but that’s just my quirk. I’ll get back to you asap. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/276 "2008-04-24T21:25:06Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] \<\\> [QUOTE=Sevastopol] To what end? I used to believe it was merely to agitate Americans so as to keep an uncritical flow of aid money to Israel. The text was, Palestinians are really the Nazis pt II & we need your cash. On further reflection, there are other reasons, one above all. Hate speech is functional. It is an identity. With the frenzy of hate speech and historical injuries, it is that much easier to brutalise your society to something less than civilised. Which is what has happened. Hate speech is part of the chorus and anthem of support for Israel. [/QUOTE] \<\\> That hate speech you refer to cuts both ways, and therein lies the rub. And whom ever referred to the Palestinians as Nazis? Is it your assertion, then, that Israel is defined by hate speech? As opposed to, say, Hamas? :dubious: [/QUOTE] Glad you asked. Perhaps it would be better to refer you to [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/) who you really should read. It is as though he sometimes reads this MB. His recent take on the this situation: > [@](#): > > The damage that Israeli spying has done to US security is immense, … Further, the nuclearization of the Middle East that the Israelis initiated has the potential to drag us all into Armageddon. > > The Israeli Right is always going on about threats to Israel’s existence, even though it is the most powerful country in the Middle East. But no one ever brings up its strangulation of the Palestinian nation, its siege of Gaza, its dispossession of the West Bankers. **The right makes an imagined future threat the basis for actual victimization of others in the present**. America’s security is deeply threatened by the ongoing Israeli colonization projects in the Middle East, as should have been clear for some time. (my emphasis) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/277 "2008-04-24T21:34:25Z")
[Speaking of genocide . . .](http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/892/re72.htm) > [@](#): > > “All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts.” This was the religious opinion issued one week ago by Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute, a long-established religious institute attended by students and soldiers in the Israeli settlements of the West Bank. In an article published by numerous religious Israeli newspapers two weeks ago and run by the liberal Haaretz on 26 March, Rosen asserted that there is evidence in the Torah to justify this stand. Rosen, an authority able to issue religious opinions for Jews, wrote that Palestinians are like the nation of Amalekites that attacked the Israelite tribes on their way to Jerusalem after they had fled from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. He wrote that the Lord sent down in the Torah a ruling that allowed the Jews to kill the Amalekites, and that this ruling is known in Jewish jurisprudence. > > Rosen’s article, which created a lot of noise in Israel, included the text of the ruling in the Torah: “Annihilate the Amalekites from the beginning to the end. Kill them and wrest them from their possessions. Show them no mercy. Kill continuously, one after the other. Leave no child, plant, or tree. Kill their beasts, from camels to donkeys.” Rosen adds that the Amalekites are not a particular race or religion, but rather all those who hate the Jews for religious or national motives. Rosen goes as far as saying that the “Amalekites will remain as long as there are Jews. In every age Amalekites will surface from other races to attack the Jews, and thus the war against them must be global.” He urges application of the “Amalekites ruling” and says that the Jews must undertake to implement it in all eras because it is a “divine commandment”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/278 "2008-04-24T21:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Sure. It’s right in their charter, links to which have been posted numerous times in this forum. … Hmm. “obliterate”…“Jihad”…“Imperialist Zionists expansion(I’m compressing a couple together here)”..etc… Gee, you’re right, my classification of the aims of Hamas as genocide was way off, what was I thinking? :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] We’ve all seen all this material before. Where’s your alleged genocide? There’s no gold stamp for not being way off. When you claim genocide, as you did, you do not get to be approximately in the vicinity with your evidence and handwave in a vague direction. Lots of people express hostility, everyone understands there is hostility. It is a much larger step to then go on to claim there is a plan for genocide. That is where the evidence fails. E.g. see above for a sufficient example. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/279 "2008-04-24T22:02:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Speaking of genocide . . .](http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/892/re72.htm) [/QUOTE] You know, you really shouldn’t take your knowledge of Judaism or Israel from Al-Ahram Weekly. On its face, your selected quote contains a gaping error: > [@](#): > > Rosen, **an authority able to issue religious opinions for Jews** , wrote … … is an obvious attempt to puff up this fellow as being of more importance than he is. Hint: no such “authorities” exist capable of issuing religious opinions for “Jews”. The rantings of some nutter Rabbi do not, IMHO, demonstrate any equivanence to the official Charter of the democratically elected party governing half the Palestinian nation. There are nuts calling for bloodshed everywhere. What is significant about Hamas, is that they nuts calling for bloodshed who happen to be in power and who actually carry out their threats, to the extent they are capable. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452/280 "2008-04-24T22:05:25Z")
First, glutton, WTF are you thinking? You cite democracy now as if it was an accurate, thorough cite, and now you cite an article talking about an Haaretz article… wihout even _bothering_ to reference the primary source? One that doesn’t even _link_ to the primary source? And most sources for it on the web reprint the allegations, _without once linking to the supposed article?_ In fact, most list the allegations’ source as the Al-Ahram article, and _not_ any Haaretz article. This doesn’t trip even a single warning light for you? Not one? Where did you even first _hear about_ this story, as it’s mostly making the rounds at racist and/or anti-Israel hardliner propaganda cites? Shouldn’t that have served as your first clue? And even if your bullshit detector is broken, doesn’t it strike you as odd that all context is removed from the equation and you just threw us a soundbyte? Were the supposed genocidal incitements supported or opposed by many Israelis? How about shows like Pioneers of Tomorrow and various sermons at mosques all over the region that call for genocide? Generally supported or opposed? By the way, since you evidently couldn’t be bothered to track down the actually primary source to perform even rudimentary fact checking, [here it is.](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/968452.html) Let’s see, glutton, if your claims are fact… or if they’re bullshit. Starting with the basics, the very first line of your cite, did, in fact, Rosen say “All of the Palestinians must be killed…” ? Nope. The phrase “all the” actually appears nowhere in the article. It is, in fact, totally made up. Invented. Fiction. A lie. One that you fell for and repeated as truth. Status: bullshit. Moving on, what did Rosen actually say? > [@](#): > > Amalek as a concept and as the object of our battle and our hostility exists in each and every generation," and that "this does not refer to the ethnic Amalek, but to all those in whom there burns a deep and abiding hatred of Israel on a national or religious basis. > […] > “Those who slaughter students poring over their Torah, those who rain Qassams down indiscriminately on men, women, old and young, babes and sucklings - those who hail the destruction of Israel and dance on the blood, are Amalek in our generation,” So, gee… not only was he not referring to “all Palesinans” as the fabricated quote claims, he was only referring to terrorists who “hail the destruction of Israel and dance on the blood”. Odd “mistake” for Al-Ahram to make, eh, eh? Status of your claim on that point: bullshit. Moving on, what did one other Israeli religious authority have to say about the issue, for example? > [@](#): > > and Rabbi Dov Lior of Kiryat Arba also makes it clear that “whoever wants to overpower and destroy the Jewish people, the law of Amalek applies to him, with all that that entails.” Status of your claim on that front: bullshit. Further, did “most” of those “authorized” to give Jewish religious opinions agree with a call for genocide? Do I even really need to quote the article, as it’s clear that Al-Ahram was simply lying when they claimed any such call for genocide actually existed? Sorry, but no, not going to waste any more time with this garbage. Please actually verify your facts before tossing out rotten propaganda. On the other bullshit claim we just got, let’s look at Juan Cole’s capabilities for honest discussion and scholarly analysis of facts. [ > [@](#): > > “Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian,” remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. “He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse.” Since Iran has not “attacked another country aggressively for over a century,” he said in an e-mail exchange, “I smell the whiff of war propaganda.” > > […] > > If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate. > > But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than “vanish” because the Persian verb is active and transitive. > > The second translation issue concerns the word “map.” Khomeini’s words were abstract: “Sahneh roozgar.” Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as “map,” and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not “Sahneh roozgar” but “Safheh roozgar,” meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word “map” again. > > Ahmad Zeidabadi, a professor of political science in Tehran whose specialty is Iran-Israel relations, explained: “It seems that in the early days of the revolution the word ‘map’ was used because it appeared to be the best meaningful translation for what he said. The words ‘sahneh roozgar’ are metaphorical and do not refer to anything specific. Maybe it was interpreted as ‘book of countries,’ and the closest thing to that was a map. Since then, we have often heard ‘Israel bayad az naghshe jographya mahv gardad’ — Israel must be wiped off the geographical map. Hard-liners have used it in their speeches.” > > The final translation issue is Mr. Ahmadinejad’s use of “occupying regime of Jerusalem” rather than “Israel.” > > To some analysts, this means he is calling for regime change, not war, and therefore it need not be regarded as a call for military action. Professor Cole, for example, says: “I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no.” > > But to others, “occupying regime” signals more than opposition to a certain government; the phrase indicates the depth of the Iranian president’s rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel. He has said that the Palestinian issue “does not lend itself to a partial territorial solution” and has called Israel “a stain” on Islam that must be erased. By contrast, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s predecessor, Mohammad Khatami, said that if the Palestinians accepted Israel’s existence, Iran would go along. > > When combined with Iran’s longstanding support for Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah of Lebanon, two groups that have killed numerous Israelis, and Mr. Ahmadinejad’s refusal to acknowledge the Holocaust, it is hard to argue that, from Israel’s point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. > > So did Iran’s president call for Israel to be wiped off the map? It certainly seems so. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)) On the edit: **Malthus** , it’s worse than all that. There weren’t even any “genocidal” rantings of any nutter Rabbi. They were invented, pure and simple. And to the peanut gallery: we can, of course, also look at Cole’s claim that Iran hasn’t attacked another nation aggressively in 100 years. I wonder, then, what the hundreds of Americans who were murdered by Hezbollah, at the direct orders of Iranian governmental officials, would have to say about them being non-aggressively murdered. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shin-bet-to-ex-pres-jimmy-carter-drop-dead/445452.md?page=15)