Malthus, I am pressed for time at the moment. I will come back this evening for further discussion. Just don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your post in the meantime.
I’m not so much interested in charges that Carter is “anti-Semitic”, than in my thesis - that Carter is motivated by an essentially religious view of Jews and Israel that he gets from a reading of scripture, and is apparently quite willing to conflate the ancient Israelites, as found in the Bible, with the modern Israelis.
It isn’t so much simply the fact that so much of what he’s absorbed about Jews from scripture is negative, as that his religious motive is leading him into error. It is somewhat worrisome to think that a guy basically expects that the modern-day Israelis are likely to suffer the wrath of God beacuse they are not literally following the OT is taken seriously as an expert on Israeli matters of peace and war!
This is I think amply demonstrated in the quotes - assuming, of course, that they are accurate. Really, what I would want is someone who has actually heard the tapes to comment, but I suppose that is unlikely to happen.
Assuming the quotes are accurate, then I suspect you are correct. Carter does seem to believe that ancient and modern Israel are the same country, and that modern Israel’s troubles are because she has not turned to the Lord (however Carter may define that).
Whether this means he has taken the next step into “therefore she should be destroyed” I don’t know, and tend to doubt. That he believes Israel is to blame for the fact that she is not now at peace I can hardly doubt at all.
Regards,
Shodan
A sad and pathetic mistake unfortunately shared by many pro-Israelis.
From (my) post 119 above:
Emphasis added.
Here’s a good read. Expresses the straight dope on Carter rather succintly.
Are you saying that a multi-national attack on Israel won’t be successful or is politically unlikely a second time?
I’d thought I’d read somewhere a private citizen was forbidden by law to travel to another country and 'negotiate" or discuss national matters such as this, e specially with a non friendly leader.
Please. That’s the most ignored law in history. If we actually enforced it, everyone from John Kerry to Jesse Jackson to countless congressmen and minor functionaries would be tossed into the klink.
There are no records of any prosecutions of the act, let alone convictions.
Before I respond to everyone’s arguments, I’d like you guys to put %'s on Israel existing in 50, 100, and 200 years.
Both.
For what it may be worth, I think finn’s analogy was pretty good. Nobody would knock black leaders for refusing to meet with a public figure who had just met with David Duke.
I’m all for holding Israel to higher standards than other nations. But there’s no need to go overboard.
Just because I’m endlessly fascinated that some folks are not only strongly biased against Israel, but they see nothing wrong with admitting it… how do you draw the line Brazil?
How much of a biased double standard is too much, how can you tell, and who gets to decide? If you’ve already opened the door to ‘principles on a sliding scale reserved for only one nation’, how then do you decide what’s overboard or not?
Honest question here.
If I abandoned my policies of ruthless intellectual honesty, I have no idea how the fuck I’d make my mind up about these sorts of things. I avoid these complications by staying grounded in a philosophy that is as near universal in its application as I can make it.
Please fight my ignorance and help me understand how you can tell acceptable from unacceptable bias and acceptable from unacceptable double standards once you’ve already allowed bias and double standards.
Even David Duke didn’t command a group that carried out terrorism against blacks.
Actually, as the Grand Wizard, he did.
I knew if I drank enough beer on a particular day that Billy Carter’s liver would rise from the grave and speak to us!
Amazing!
Oh yeah, I actually forgot about that. What a dick.
I tire of this fucking argument, Israel has a right to exist and protect itself from factions like Hamas that disagree with that right, and Palestinians have an equal right to exist and have land to own and farm, etc.
Biblical or Quranical claims of land ownership are moot and baseless…to the victor go the spoils.
And what has Israel won, exactly besides the right to exist?
Constant calls for the eradication of Jews and the state of Israel, terrorist attacks with a frequency that would make an American hide in a fallout shelter…and yet…funny thing…Israel doesn’t attack others unless attacked, in recent history.
Arab nations need to quit this shit, it’s old, get over it, it isn’t like you’re offering all those poor Palestinian fellow Arab brothers oppressed by the Nazi Jew regime a place to stay, you’re using it as a means to attack a country that you hate and doesn’t agree with your particular religion.
Fuck you, Arab nations, I hope Israel continues to kick your ass (with our help) and you literally continue to bury your heads into the sands of Arabia while they do it.
It’s a difficult question. To paraphrase Hillel, if the Jews are for everyone, then who will be for the Jews? (evangelical Christians?) And if the Jews are only for themselves, then what are they?
Anyway, refusing to meet with Carter is well within the bounds of what’s reasonable.
Hah. This is a typical example of Jews over-analyzing stuff. The answer’s simple.
Nobody is “for the Jews.” The Jews shouldn’t count on anyone for the preservation of their religion and culture besides themselves. And if the Jews are “only for themselves” (what does that even mean?) they’re still Jews. They will always be Jews. I don’t really think it makes any difference how much Jews try to assimilate or fit in - to the people who don’t like Jews, all they are is Jews and they’ll never be anything more. That’s one lesson to be learned from Nazi Germany, anyway.
In other words, I think the Jews should just be like every single other culture in the world - they should cover their own ass, not look to other people to solve their problems, and defend themselves when they need to. To that end, they set up what is now Israel. They beat the British, they beat the Arab nations, they’ve taken their own land in conquest - in short, they’ve done exactly what every other nation in the history of the world has done.
I think FoieGrasIsEvil is more or less on the money, except I don’t think America or anyone else should give aid to Israel - because doing so allows people to throw that back in their face. “You’re only what you are because of America!” They should just be independent and be left alone.
Just one American Jew’s opinion.
Except that by your reasoning, it seems that Israel hasn’t won the right to exist, because there is no such right except that which can be procured by the barrel of a gun–might makes right and to the victor go the spoils. Now many people in this thread think it’s an open question whether Israel can defend itself militarily against all comers, but on your theory, Israel doesn’t have any right to the land it lives on that others are bound to respect, if they think they can defeat Israel militarily.