# Ships sunk by submarines since 1945? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 21, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297 "2013-04-21T10:34:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/1 "2013-04-21T10:34:53Z")
Looking around I could only find three mentions of a ship being sunk by a submarine since the end of World War II. \*The Indian frigate _Khukri_ sunk by the Pakistani submarine _Hangor_ on December 9, 1971. \*The Argentine cruiser _General Belgrano_ sunk by the British submarine _Conqueror_ on May 2, 1982. \*The South Korean corvette _Cheonan_ sunk by a North Korean submarine on March 26, 2010. Anyone know of any others? (For the sake of this thread, I’m only asking about intentional sinkings, not accidental ones if there were any.) ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/2 "2013-04-21T12:32:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Looking around I could only find three mentions of a ship being sunk by a submarine since the end of World War II. > > \*The Indian frigate _Khukri_ sunk by the Pakistani submarine _Hangor_ on December 9, 1971. > \*The Argentine cruiser _General Belgrano_ sunk by the British submarine _Conqueror_ on May 2, 1982. > \*The South Korean corvette _Cheonan_ sunk by a North Korean submarine on March 26, 2010. > > Anyone know of any others? (For the sake of this thread, I’m only asking about intentional sinkings, not accidental ones if there were any.) And you must mean intentional sinking of an _enemy_ ship while the _enemy_ were in control of it, and by a submarine. That rules out mere scuttling, weapons testing or practice… (eg Australian sub sinks a ex-US navy ship as target practice… that doesn’t count. Its not enemy. Eg British sub sinks a German ship to scuttle it.. enemy wasn’t in control of it.) There is not a long list of post-WWII sinking of enemy ships while the enemy is in control of it, by any means.. A few more in the Falklands War , sunk by aircraft to surface attacks. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/3 "2013-04-21T13:37:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > (For the sake of this thread, I’m only asking about intentional sinkings, not accidental ones if there were any.) This is a bit of a hijack since the OP is intentionally not looking for these, but there have been accidental sinkings, such as the Japanese trawler that was sunk in 2001. > **[Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision)** > > On 9 February 2001, about nine nautical miles (17 km; 10 mi) south of Oahu, Hawaii, in the Pacific Ocean, the United States Navy (USN) Los Angeles-class submarine USS Greeneville (SSN-772) collided with the Japanese fishery high-school training ship Ehime Maru (えひめ丸) from Ehime Prefecture. In a demonstration for some VIP civilian visitors, Greeneville performed an emergency ballast blow surfacing maneuver. As the submarine shot to the surface, she struck Ehime Maru. Within ten minutes of the c... A submarine also sunk a Scottish trawler in 1992. > **[Submarine crew blamed for sinking of Antares](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/submarine-crew-blamed-for-sinking-of-antares-1532324.html)** > > MISTAKES by a submarine's command team led to the sinking of a Scottish trawler with the loss of its four-man crew, according to an official accident report published yesterday. This site lists a Japanese freighter sunk in 1981 and a South Korean fishing boat in 1998. > **[Military/Vault - Collisions involving US and Soviet/Russian Submarines](https://andysvault.narod.ru/navy_subcoll.htm)** There are some references online to a possible sinking of a French fishing vessel in 1994 but the articles I found weren’t conclusive. I’m wondering if more ships have been sunk in accidents than on purpose by subs since WWII. There seems to be an awful lot of accidents. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/4 "2013-04-21T14:17:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Looking around I could only find three mentions of a ship being sunk by a submarine since the end of World War II. > > \*The Indian frigate _Khukri_ sunk by the Pakistani submarine _Hangor_ on December 9, 1971. > \*The Argentine cruiser _General Belgrano_ sunk by the British submarine _Conqueror_ on May 2, 1982. > \*The South Korean corvette _Cheonan_ sunk by a North Korean submarine on March 26, 2010. > > Anyone know of any others? (For the sake of this thread, I’m only asking about intentional sinkings, not accidental ones if there were any.) The last is not confirmed if it was a sub is it? In addition, the _Hangor_ damaged another frigate in the same action, which sailed back to port but was written off. The Israeli Navy might have sunk a ship or two with it’s submarine force in 1973. But, I think what you state in the OP is it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/5 "2013-04-21T20:01:31Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The last is not confirmed if it was a sub is it? Apparently nobody is disputing the _Cheonan_ was sank by a submarine-launched torpedo. There is however a conspiracy theory that it was not a North Korean sub. Some people claim (and their evidence is pretty weak) that an American sub accidentally sank the _Cheonan_ and there was a government cover-up to blame North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/6 "2013-04-21T20:39:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Looking around I could only find three mentions of a ship being sunk by a submarine since the end of World War II. > > \ > > \*The Argentine cruiser _General Belgrano_ sunk by the British submarine _Conqueror_ on May 2, 1982. > > \ It’s a footnote, but the WWII-era _Belgrano_ (the former USS Phoenix), was sunk by WWII-era [Mark VIII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_21_inch_torpedo#21_inch_Mark_VIII) torpedoes. Of course, _Conqueror_ herself was quite a bit more modern. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/7 "2013-04-21T21:32:52Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I’m wondering if more ships have been sunk in accidents than on purpose by subs since WWII. There seems to be an awful lot of accidents. Also a hijack since they were accidents, but Russia initially tried to place the blame for the loss of the _[Kursk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_explosion)_ on a collision with a US or British sub. The cause of the loss of the INS [\*Dakar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Dakar)\* in 1968 during delivery remains unknown, as does the French _[Minerve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Minerve_(S647))_ the same year. The idea that the [USS \*Scorpion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Scorpion_(SSN-589))\*, also lost in 1968, was sunk by a Soviet attack has been tossed around, as has the theory that the [K-129](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-129_(1960)) was sunk by a collision with the USS _Swordfish_. Any guess on what year it happened? I didn’t read it, but IIRC someone wrote a novel based on the idea that there was a secret submarine war going on in 1968. There is of course no evidence that any of them were more than accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/8 "2013-04-22T12:08:01Z")
Dissonance, I ordered a book recently about the loss of the Scorpion. It was written in 2011 so I assume it has the most recent knowledge. From write ups it seems little more than a tragic accident. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/9 "2013-04-22T18:49:30Z")
One book on this is _Blind Man’s Bluff_ (Harper-Collins, 1998) Excellent read. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/10 "2013-04-22T19:21:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Also a hijack since they were accidents, but Russia initially tried to place the blame for the loss of the _[Kursk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_explosion)_ on a collision with a US or British sub… > …as has the theory that the [K-129](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-129_(1960)) was sunk by a collision with the USS _Swordfish_. Any guess on what year it happened? I didn’t read it, but IIRC someone wrote a novel based on the idea that there was a secret submarine war going on in 1968. There is of course no evidence that any of them were more than accidents. This seems to be a trend with the former Soviet Union, as they blamed the loss of the [SSBN K-219](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-219) on a collision with USS Augusta. FWIW, the K-219’s captain, XO, and indeed the at the time C-in-C of the Red Navy, denied that a collision was to blame for the casualty. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/11 "2013-04-22T20:43:48Z")
A Japanese fishing ship was sunk by a USN sub off Hawaii-I think it was in 1999 or so. The accident happened because the sub surfaced beneath the fishing ship-and destroyed it. The captain of the sub was reported to have exclaimed “what the hell was that!”. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/12 "2013-04-22T21:49:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > A Japanese fishing ship was sunk by a USN sub off Hawaii-I think it was in 1999 or so. That was the [Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision) in 2001, previously linked to by **engineer\_comp\_geek** in post #3. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/13 "2013-04-22T22:48:18Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Dissonance, I ordered a book recently about the loss of the Scorpion. It was written in 2011 so I assume it has the most recent knowledge. From write ups it seems little more than a tragic accident. Oh, I’m confidant it was, as were all the other submarine losses in 1968. I don’t think that there was some conspiratorial secret submarine war in 1968, just a coincidence of losses to accidents that year. I was just noting that the idea that the _Scorpion_ might have been sunk by hostile action was floated about as a possibility. The K-129 being lost due to collision with the _Swordfish_ doesn’t hold up either; the _Swordfish_ was involved in a different accident that bent the periscope in a collision with icepack 2,000 miles from where K-129 went down. An Egyptian newspaper at one point claimed that Egyptian warships had sunk the INS _Dakar_, but there is no evidence of that either. _Minerve_ failed to report in within a few days of the _Dakar_ and about 1,000 miles away, but there is no evidence of this being more than a coincidence either. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/14 "2013-04-23T12:07:34Z")
How many small boats have been sunk by accidental collisions with subs? There have been several cases of fishing trawlers having subs snagged in their nets. As a hypothetical, a sub hits a small fishing boat…they surface, find some debris, no survivors-would the captain report such an incident? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/15 "2013-04-23T13:05:33Z")
I remember reading that the _Kursk_ was most likely sunk by an accidental torpedo explosion. There were rumors that the Russian navy was trying to develop torpedoes that could travel at supersonic speeds. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/16 "2013-04-23T16:01:07Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > There were rumors that the Russian navy was trying to develop torpedoes that could travel at supersonic speeds. Well, they DO have a _supercavitating_ torpedo that travels at unmatched speed; possibly that was the source of the rumor? [VA-111 Shkval](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/17 "2013-04-23T17:42:59Z")
“Supersonic”? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/18 "2013-04-25T13:02:53Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I remember reading that the _Kursk_ was most likely sunk by an accidental torpedo explosion. The same mechanism has been proposed for the _Scorpion_ sinking. Apparently it is not a good thing when torpedo motors start up when they are still onboard. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/19 "2013-04-25T14:20:03Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > “Supersonic”? Well, that’s what the rumor said. I see from the Wiki page that they are listed as being able to travel at 200 knots (230 mph). Still pretty damn fast. For comparison, does anyone know how fast a normal torpedo can travel? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ships-sunk-by-submarines-since-1945/656297/20 "2013-04-25T14:46:04Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > …Still pretty damn fast. For comparison, does anyone know how fast a normal torpedo can travel? Navies can be coy about this sort of thing. Plus it’s a bit of a tradeoff: you can go [really far, but slower, or really fast, but not as far](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm): > [@](#): > > Claimed > 40 kt 55 kt > MK-48 44,550 yd 34,430 yd > MK-48 ADCAP 54,685 yd 42,530 yd Per the above, the U.S. [Mk 48 ADCAP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_48_torpedo) torpedo is thought to have a maximum speed of ~55 knots. Would not shock me at all if it actually could burst for faster speeds, especially given the Royal Navy’s [Spearfish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearfish_torpedo) torpedo, and it’s top speed of ~80 knots. [Russian torpedoes](http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm) include the Type 65-76 that sank the Kursk, and most of these have speeds ~50 knots. I would treat 50 knots as a very rough guess. Air-dropped ASW torpedoes are usually a bit slower, with the U.S. [Mk. 46](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_46_torpedo) and [Mk. 50](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-50.htm) listed at ~40 knots. The desire for greater range and speed has lead to the use of more energetic oxidizers and fuels, hence the use of [High Test Hydrogen Peroxide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-test_peroxide) in the 65-76, and compressed oxygen in the IJN [Type 93](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_torpedo), “Long Lance.” These compounds can be extremely dangerous and difficult to work with, as the Russians could tell you.