# Shirley MacLaine explains the Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539 "2015-02-13T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/61 "2015-02-15T00:18:55Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > My homeland has been invaded by, among others, the Italians, the Chinese and the indians. All of whom brought better food. San Francisco? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/62 "2015-02-17T05:53:34Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Dumber than Jenny McCarthy? NFL presents “You Make The Call!” Less dangerous than Jenny McCarthy, although that’s probably down to chance more than anything else. Unless Shirley MacLoon has an antivaccine history I don’t know about, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/63 "2015-02-17T07:15:45Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Is there a faith out there that believes there is just one soul that lives every life, that travels through time so it can be reincarnated into everybody who has ever lived? That’s the ultimate fair theology, and one that would urge people to treat each other better. That is sort of what gnana says. You can read about it [here](http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Ramana%20Maharshi%20-%20Be%20As%20You%20Are--The%20Teachings%20of%20Sri%20Ramana%20Maharshi--Godman.pdf). It will be more along the lines of, “There is no everybody, there is only the Self.” This view rejects “otherness” I guess you could say, so that “I” is never distinct from any other thing, resulting in the view that the only thing that exists is a single being, various manifestations to the contrary being a sort of illusion though still of course retaining a kind of secondary reality. One could say it urges people to treat each other better, since anything one does one does to to oneself. But it doesn’t seem to have caught on if ya know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/64 "2015-02-20T15:58:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > AIU New Age doctrine, the Holocaust victims were not even being punished, they were just acquiring new experiences essential to their spiritual evolution, and so were the Nazis. Correct! (Regarding your understanding, not a comment about whether it’s true or not.) If you believe that life in a body is simply a vehicle for experience for the spirit/soul, then judgment falls away; pain, sorrow, violence… the only way any of these ideas mean anything at all is in the context of being alive in a physical form. Spirit cannot be raped, murdered, tortured, starved, humiliated, etc. Only a being of flesh can experience those things, making life itself truly Shakespeare’s stage and all the men and women merely players. Spirits taking on roles to experience and to help others experience. And when the play is over, everyone returns to a state of being where the only effect of whatever suffering they have endured in life (or inflicted) has been to enrich and enlighten the spirit. Nothing is actually good or bad, it just is, and what appears to be good or bad to our fleshly selves is merely balance. Maclaine’s questions/comments about creation are bound to make people angry and defensive without this context, context which is rarely included in any discussion of the idea that we may have a great deal more choice, power and control over the circumstances and events of our lives than most of us believe. Including the context isn’t going to make people agree or accept any of it any more readily, but perhaps it can mitigate the rage that often arises around any suggestion that any person’s “negative” experience is one they have chosen themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/65 "2015-02-20T16:06:03Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Are there any religions that accept evolution, accept the evil/unfairness that comes from biology and natural selection, and that still promote the best in humans (empathy, compassion, science)? The closest I can come up with is Jainism, and I think that one is iffy on hitting those marks. Secular humanism too I guess, but that isn’t a religion. Catholicism. Catholics don’t need to check their brains at the door to believe in God, they simply believe that God created evolution, because they realize that denying the fact of evolution is ignorant. The Catholic view is that God set everything up and now just lets it play out how it will. At least that’s my understanding. (My mom was a Catholic.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/66 "2015-02-20T20:06:20Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > That sounds like a cool philosophy. > > Are there any religions that accept evolution, accept the evil/unfairness that comes from biology and natural selection, and that still promote the best in humans (empathy, compassion, science)? The closest I can come up with is Jainism, and I think that one is iffy on hitting those marks. Secular humanism too I guess, but that isn’t a religion. You’ve never heard of liberal Protestantism? (The larger groups being the Episocpal Church, the Presbyterian Church USA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the American Baptist Church, the United Methodist Church, the Disciples of Christ, the United Church of Christ, tho those also have their conservative congregations, and many other smaller groups.) And then there is Unitarianism, whose members range from non-theist to neo-Pagan and even some Christians. Oh yeah, and there are also plenty of New Agers, Neo-Pagans, and other types of Reincarnationists who cringe whenever Shirley MacLaine opens her mouth. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/67 "2015-02-20T20:59:59Z")
So Shirely MacLaine is still batshit crazy huh? Whodathunkit. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/68 "2015-03-07T04:38:03Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Correct! (Regarding your understanding, not a comment about whether it’s true or not.) > > If you believe that life in a body is simply a vehicle for experience for the spirit/soul, then judgment falls away; pain, sorrow, violence… the only way any of these ideas mean anything at all is in the context of being alive in a physical form. Spirit cannot be raped, murdered, tortured, starved, humiliated, etc. Only a being of flesh can experience those things, making life itself truly Shakespeare’s stage and all the men and women merely players. Spirits taking on roles to experience and to help others experience. And when the play is over, everyone returns to a state of being where the only effect of whatever suffering they have endured in life (or inflicted) has been to enrich and enlighten the spirit. Nothing is actually good or bad, it just is, and what appears to be good or bad to our fleshly selves is merely balance. > > Maclaine’s questions/comments about creation are bound to make people angry and defensive without this context, context which is rarely included in any discussion of the idea that we may have a great deal more choice, power and control over the circumstances and events of our lives than most of us believe. Including the context isn’t going to make people agree or accept any of it any more readily, but perhaps it can mitigate the rage that often arises around any suggestion that any person’s “negative” experience is one they have chosen themselves. Dear god that is a disgusting philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/69 "2015-03-07T04:49:32Z")
I don’t see it as intrinsically disgusting… It’s a rotten philosophy to those of us who believe that the body and bodily experiences are meaningful. It’s an incorrect philosophy to those of us who don’t believe in “spirit” at all. (I also see it as slightly dangerous, as it could lead people to ignore worldly matters and concentrate too much on the spiritual world. This is the same objection many of us have to all varieties of “Pie in the sky when you die” religious beliefs.) In it’s own way, it’s beyond “disgusting.” Just as the behavior of the wasp that lays eggs inside a paralyzed victim is beyond “disgusting.” We, brought up with our human views of right and wrong, are squicked out over it, but it’s just nature doing natural things. The same might be true of the view of spirit as explained by **Stoid**. It feels wrong to us, because we have views that are contrary to it. But suppose it were true: it wouldn’t really be disgusting, but actually vaguely comforting. We live, we suffer, we rejoice, we die…and some immortal part of us learns from it. Again, what’s disgusting is the idea that The Holocaust is not a ghastly episode in human evil, but just some kind of business as usual. That’s the danger of this philosophy. It leads to a disconnect between us and our moral responsibilities. But it’s only disgusting if you believe in moral responsibilities in the first place, and some spiritualists apparently don’t. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/70 "2015-03-07T10:16:02Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > The Apartment is still one of the greatest movies ever made, so at least there’s that. She used to be one of my favorite actresses, but from now on, I won’t be wasting any time watching her. She has poisoned any enjoyment I could ever receive from her performances. Now, when I think of her, all I can picture is a ditch in Auschwitz, filled with rotting corpses. The insanity responsible for such atrocities is no different than her own. And when she finally dies, she won’t be getting any “R.I.P.” from me. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/71 "2015-03-07T11:17:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As God is my witness, I thought Shirley MacLaine was dead. Many times, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/72 "2015-03-07T11:18:17Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > First, let me express my surprise (though not pleasure) at learning she’s still alive. > > One could equally ask, "What heinous crime did we commit in past lives to be subjected to her in this one? It ought to be enough that we endure you. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/73 "2015-03-07T12:44:55Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > :eek: > > Only now - through this thread - did I realise that Shirley MacLaine, classic old Hollywood starlet, and Shirley MacLaine, kooky New Age guru, are actually… One and the same person. Apparently many more than just the two of them. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/74 "2015-03-07T22:06:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t see it as intrinsically disgusting… It’s a rotten philosophy to those of us who believe that the body and bodily experiences are meaningful. It’s an incorrect philosophy to those of us who don’t believe in “spirit” at all. > > (I also see it as slightly dangerous, as it could lead people to ignore worldly matters and concentrate too much on the spiritual world. This is the same objection many of us have to all varieties of “Pie in the sky when you die” religious beliefs.) > > In it’s own way, it’s beyond “disgusting.” Just as the behavior of the wasp that lays eggs inside a paralyzed victim is beyond “disgusting.” We, brought up with our human views of right and wrong, are squicked out over it, but it’s just nature doing natural things. > > The same might be true of the view of spirit as explained by **Stoid**. It feels wrong to us, because we have views that are contrary to it. But suppose it were true: it wouldn’t really be disgusting, but actually vaguely comforting. We live, we suffer, we rejoice, we die…and some immortal part of us learns from it. > > Again, what’s disgusting is the idea that The Holocaust is not a ghastly episode in human evil, but just some kind of business as usual. That’s the danger of this philosophy. It leads to a disconnect between us and our moral responsibilities. But it’s only disgusting if you believe in moral responsibilities in the first place, and some spiritualists apparently don’t. The thing that’s disgusting is the idea that moral responsibility doesn’t exist and that you can use that to justify horrific acts. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/75 "2015-03-07T22:21:20Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The thing that’s disgusting is the idea that moral responsibility doesn’t exist and that you can use that to justify horrific acts. It doesn’t really. Certainly not necessarily. Buddhism doesn’t teach morality but coincidentally suggested best practices often line up with what many would consider acting morally. Plenty of moral based religions have been used to justify horrific acts too. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/76 "2015-03-08T01:42:38Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The thing that’s disgusting is the idea that moral responsibility doesn’t exist and that you can use that to justify horrific acts. I agree it’s disgusting…but that’s because I believe in moral responsibility. There’s a kind of circularity here, in that we’re depending on what we already believe to define what is disgusting or not. As I noted, in nature, “horrible” acts are commonplace, and there is no “moral responsibility.” The little bird falls from its nest, and is devoured, still alive, by ants. Is that immoral? To you and me, yes. To the ants? Not at all. The meta- step I am exploring is: what if there really are spirits that outlive our bodies? If that were true, then universal morality might exist, and it might be different from what we believe in. Honestly and truly, I agree with you. Moral responsibility is a good thing, and Shirley MacLaine is a loon (“Ohwhatalooniam.”) But this can’t be demonstrated from first principles. It depends on an assumption, one that pretty much defines modern Enlightened morality. Torture is bad, not because God said so, nor because Pastor Bob said so, nor because the Golden Rule says so, but, ultimately, on the basis of an appeal to authority: because the code of ethics to which we subscribe says so. We can’t escape the circularity. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/77 "2015-04-12T17:38:59Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The thing that’s disgusting is the idea that moral responsibility doesn’t exist and that you can use that to justify horrific acts. Except that isn’t the philosophy I described. > [@CarnalK](#): > > It doesn’t really. Certainly not necessarily. Buddhism doesn’t teach morality but coincidentally suggested best practices often line up with what many would consider acting morally. Plenty of moral based religions have been used to justify horrific acts too. Yes. > [@Trinopus](#): > > I agree it’s disgusting…but that’s because I believe in moral responsibility. > > There’s a kind of circularity here, in that we’re depending on what we already believe to define what is disgusting or not. > > As I noted, in nature, “horrible” acts are commonplace, and there is no “moral responsibility.” The little bird falls from its nest, and is devoured, still alive, by ants. Is that immoral? To you and me, yes. To the ants? Not at all. > > The meta- step I am exploring is: what if there really are spirits that outlive our bodies? If that were true, then universal morality might exist, and it might be different from what we believe in. > > Honestly and truly, I agree with you. Moral responsibility is a good thing, and Shirley MacLaine is a loon (“Ohwhatalooniam.”) But this can’t be demonstrated from first principles. It depends on an assumption, one that pretty much defines modern Enlightened morality. > > Torture is bad, not because God said so, nor because Pastor Bob said so, nor because the Golden Rule says so, but, ultimately, on the basis of an appeal to authority: because the code of ethics to which we subscribe says so. We can’t escape the circularity. It’s important to explore where the code of ethics came from, though: it isn’t arbitrary. It is a code that evolved from actual conduct that humans either engaged in or avoided because it was useful to their collective survival. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/78 "2015-04-12T18:00:55Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > It is a code that evolved from actual conduct that humans either engaged in or avoided because it was useful to their collective survival. This pat evopsych explanation for the origin of morality and religion isn’t supported by anything but handwaving. In fact, there are many religious behaviors that clearly work against “collective survival,” an obvious example relevant to MacLaine’s reincarnation bullshit being the belief that changing the horrible conditions in which the mass of Indians and Southeast Asians live is against the cosmic order which ordained those conditions as punishment for past transgressions. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/79 "2015-04-12T18:56:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > This pat evopsych explanation for the origin of morality and religion isn’t supported by anything but handwaving. Not really. There are many examples of animal species in nature forming packs for survival. They tend to not kill each other indiscriminately. This, in most basic form, is an evolutionary moral code, is it not? Why should human evolution be immune to similarly evolved psychological morality? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/80 "2015-04-13T13:07:43Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I love the idea of karma, it lets me go around treating people like shit and just assume that they deserve it. A few Buddhists I’ve known seem to think this is actually the case. They’re not horrible murderers or anything, just incredibly self-centred users of people who act like they’re better than everyone else. I actually prefer the Church of England or other very mild sects of Christianity more than Buddhism these days. The songs are better too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539.md?page=5)