# Shirley MacLaine explains the Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539 "2015-02-13T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/101 "2015-04-15T19:32:25Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Seems like another manifestation of the just world fallacy. The example my social psych text gave was people speculating that children who were raped by pederasts must have done something awful in a past life to deserve it. It’s such a nasty way of looking at the world. Wait, doesn’t that propose some kind of theology of “original evil”? like, there was no need for karma, or reincarnation, until someone, a long time ago, was the original jackass? So, what was the original evil, who was that bastard, and why did he do it? > [@dropzone](#): > > She’s old. She’ll be dead soon. Don’t anybody pick her in next year’s death pool. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/102 "2015-04-15T20:31:13Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Wait, doesn’t that propose some kind of theology of “original evil”? like, there was no need for karma, or reincarnation, until someone, a long time ago, was the original jackass? So, what was the original evil, who was that bastard, and why did he do it? Because they started their karmic cycle as a demon, or because Shiva made them do it, or something like that. The Hindu/Buddhist tradition that the “karma” belief comes from is unabashedly polytheistic and supernatural, again despite what its hippie American followers have decided on its behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/103 "2015-04-15T21:07:55Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, I have different issues with the eternal afterlife theory. But, in that case, you aren’t put in a position to be judged on earth by others based on decisions you made in a previous life that you don’t have control over in this life. Eh, I dunno. Granted it’s not a decision made by “me”, but original sin would seem to incorporate a similar level of having to pay the bills for the choices of others, and being judged by others for that. Plus there’s those philosophies where those who are saved are apriori selected. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/104 "2015-04-15T21:52:11Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Sorry, I don’t have the time to try to make heads or tails out of that. To me, it boils down to one question…does this philosophy open the door or even encourage a dismissive attitude towards suffering? If yes, then it’s a very problematic philosophy, **and I don’t see how it could possibly be no**. So, yes. I have major issues with it. On what do you base your certainty, as highlighted, given that you have misstated the facts regarding the philosophy, (which strongly suggests you not in possession of said facts to begin with, rather than that you deliberately misstated them)? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/105 "2015-04-15T21:56:45Z")
What is all this talk of judgment? Who is doing all this judging? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/106 "2015-04-15T22:58:31Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > On what do you base your certainty, as highlighted, given that you have misstated the facts regarding the philosophy, (which strongly suggests you not in possession of said facts to begin with, rather than that you deliberately misstated them)? My certainty is based on my experience with human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/107 "2015-04-16T00:08:38Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Eh, I dunno. Granted it’s not a decision made by “me”, but original sin would seem to incorporate a similar level of having to pay the bills for the choices of others, and being judged by others for that. Plus there’s those philosophies where those who are saved are apriori selected. So Adam fucked you over 6000 years before you were born, then Jesus makes it all good on the cross 4000 years later. You have to admit you’d have eaten the apple too if you’d been there yourself; and that was a nice gesture by Christ, albeit kinda weird. It’s like getting a bank statement saying your account has a million dollar negative balance, then a letter saying They’ve corrected the error. And you don’t even have an account there. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/108 "2015-04-16T00:20:49Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Sooo… learning how to turn human skin into lampshades is an experience necessary to spiritual evolution? I thought I would have to give a Snopes linke, but it seems [I have a better one](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2511/did-the-nazis-make-lampshades-out-of-human-skin)… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/109 "2015-04-16T06:13:31Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > My certainty is based on my experience with human nature. How does your personal experience of human nature lead to certainty about how a philosophy and belief system you don’t understand will affect the point of view of those who embrace it? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/110 "2015-04-16T09:35:50Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > So Adam fucked you over 6000 years before you were born, then Jesus makes it all good on the cross 4000 years later. You have to admit you’d have eaten the apple too if you’d been there yourself; and that was a nice gesture by Christ, albeit kinda weird. I don’t “have to admit” any such thing; nor, if I would have, should I be punished for something that I would have done if I was in a particular situation but didn’t because I wasn’t. And it wouldn’t be Adam that fucked me over anyway, it would be God - it’s not Adam’s rules. > [@](#): > > It’s like getting a bank statement saying your account has a million dollar negative balance, then a letter saying They’ve corrected the error. And you don’t even have an account there. At which point, I imagine, I would tend to think that I was being scammed in some way. Going back to **Sarahfeena** ’s posts, I think there’s a fairly reasonable line to be made that original sin is very much a compatriot in arms of the kind of divested responsibility for decisions (and the judgement of others in this life for that) that she’s finding so offensive. If it’s wrong and foolish to hold people to the idea that they are responsible and held to account for the wrongs committed by themselves in past lives, it’s also wrong and foolish to hold people to the idea that they are responsible and held to account for the wrongs committed by an entirely separate person. Regardless of whether that account is considered “settled” - it does not suggest wisdom on the part of the authority, and it’s an authority in theory that can’t be escaped. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/111 "2015-04-16T11:26:53Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > My homeland has been invaded by, among others, the Italians, the Chinese and the indians. All of whom brought better food. I have to ask, what place is this? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/112 "2015-04-16T12:17:58Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Because they started their karmic cycle as a demon, or because Shiva made them do it, or something like that. The Hindu/Buddhist tradition that the “karma” belief comes from is unabashedly polytheistic and supernatural, again despite what its hippie American followers have decided on its behalf. So all suffering in the world is explained by some demons trying to redeem themselves by living lives as humans, and needing to suffer, so they suffer at the hands of others, and then those others need to atone, and the beat goes on? BTW, it’s a good thing that MacLaine’s costar, and apparently one-time friend, Audrey Hepburn, isn’t around to hear this nonsense. Hepburn survived the Dutch hongerwinter, when the Nazis prevented much of the country from getting food one winter, and not much grows there when it’s cold. It apparently haunted Hepburn for the rest of her life, and also brought her to a certain solidarity with the mostly Jewish victims of the Nazis. I wonder what sin MacLaine imagines she committed in a previous life to deserve that experience? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/113 "2015-04-16T17:43:55Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t “have to admit” any such thing; nor, if I would have, should I be punished for something that I would have done if I was in a particular situation but didn’t because I wasn’t. And it wouldn’t be Adam that fucked me over anyway, it would be God - it’s not Adam’s rules. At which point, I imagine, I would tend to think that I was being scammed in some way. It’s what the Catholic Church (which is indeed corrupt, but that’s not to say is run by idiots: far from it) calls an _allegory_. There were myths to explain things before we had facts, and eventually the church accepts the theory of evolution, and the earth’s rotation around the sun; for example. The church is correct in that we, in our natural state, are selfish, stupid and crazy. They feel the way out it is “Do exactly as We say,” while “try to figure it out for yourself without doing any harm” may be the method you and I would find agreement on. But the allegory of the apple still holds. Humans aren’t born with “original (Adam’s) sin,” but we are born with a legacy of all the fucked-up shit that the human condition provides us. Instead of God damning us to Hell for eating apples, we have signs that say “DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE.” And people still pee on electric fences for the Hell of it. And then sue the electric company. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/114 "2015-04-16T18:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post > OK then how about they come back and spend the next 500 years as a clam before their allowed to reincarnate again. > Well, if my inexplicable memories are right, I fucked too many groupies in my past life and have spent 95% of my current one single. Talk about karma. > > Oh, and I missed the 70’s and 80’s. Damn. > [@BlindTyger](#): > > Well, if my inexplicable memories are right, I fucked too many groupies in my past life and have spent 95% of my current one single. Talk about karma. > > Oh, and I missed the 70’s and 80’s. Damn. And I thought he was talking about Scientology. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/115 "2015-04-17T13:45:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t “have to admit” any such thing; nor, if I would have, should I be punished for something that I would have done if I was in a particular situation but didn’t because I wasn’t. And it wouldn’t be Adam that fucked me over anyway, it would be God - it’s not Adam’s rules. At which point, I imagine, I would tend to think that I was being scammed in some way. > > Going back to **Sarahfeena** ’s posts, I think there’s a fairly reasonable line to be made that original sin is very much a compatriot in arms of the kind of divested responsibility for decisions (and the judgement of others in this life for that) that she’s finding so offensive. If it’s wrong and foolish to hold people to the idea that they are responsible and held to account for the wrongs committed by themselves in past lives, it’s also wrong and foolish to hold people to the idea that they are responsible and held to account for the wrongs committed by an entirely separate person. Regardless of whether that account is considered “settled” - it does not suggest wisdom on the part of the authority, and it’s an authority in theory that can’t be escaped. It’s a valid point. The difference I’m seeing is that original sin applies to all people, and because we have free will, theoretically it’s possible for individuals to “fix” it in this life. That’s very different from a philosophy that says that something that we did or chose in a past life determines what happens to us in this life. It’s an easy explanation, but it also allows for victim-blaming…heck, it’s _purpose_ is actually victim-blaming…and it’s not something that can be remedied in this life. ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/116 "2015-04-17T18:25:58Z")
I tend to think of the Adam/Eve Allegory is a “coming of age” type of story in a way. We can laud the innocence of youth, but find the idea of never growing up as creepy. At one point (as a person or as a species) we were not sentient - “did not know death” because we could not have thought that far ahead. But reaching the age of reason is a mixed bag, lotsa bad stuff comes with the good. As far a the inheritance thing, (most) folks don’t go around saying “Grandpa left me a bunch of money. That’s not fair!!! People should not inherit stuff from their ancestors!!!” But if we had to pay for grandpa’s bills, well, that’s totally different altogether. \ That’s totally differerent \ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/117 "2015-04-17T20:58:17Z")
I was astonished to learn, in this thread, that there are people who say you should be mean or cruel to the lowly, for this is part of their punishment for their actions in a past life. I’d always thought the principle was to be kind and generous to the lowly, in order to build up merit for yourself in the next life. Being cruel to anyone, for any reason, accrues bad karma. It’s self-destructive to be cruel even to the lowliest beggar or pariah; it increases the chances (if karma is true – I personally don’t believe in it) of coming back as a beggar or pariah yourself. Any theological principle is susceptible to mistaken interpretation. (“Prosperity Theology” in Christianity is an example, as in the GD thread on the subject.) I’m pretty sure the Buddha did not intend us to be mean to beggars. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/118 "2015-04-18T03:43:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I was astonished to learn, in this thread, that there are people who say you should be mean or cruel to the lowly, for this is part of their punishment for their actions in a past life. > > I’d always thought the principle was to be kind and generous to the lowly, in order to build up merit for yourself in the next life. > > Being cruel to anyone, for any reason, accrues bad karma. It’s self-destructive to be cruel even to the lowliest beggar or pariah; it increases the chances (if karma is true – I personally don’t believe in it) of coming back as a beggar or pariah yourself. > > Any theological principle is susceptible to mistaken interpretation. (“Prosperity Theology” in Christianity is an example, as in the GD thread on the subject.) I’m pretty sure the Buddha did not intend us to be mean to beggars. Thank you. It is such a perverse conclusion to jump to that people are looking to their spiritual beliefs for reasons to be insensitive assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/119 "2015-04-18T18:20:57Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Thank you. It is such a perverse conclusion to jump to that people are looking to their spiritual beliefs for reasons to be insensitive assholes. [Welcome to planet Earth.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/04/anti-gay-pizzeria_n_7003596.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/120 "2015-04-18T20:53:15Z")
Damn, being a stupid bigot seems like a solid financial choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539.md?page=7)