# Shirley MacLaine explains the Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539 "2015-02-13T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/121 "2015-04-20T18:37:16Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > It’s a valid point. The difference I’m seeing is that original sin applies to all people, and because we have free will, theoretically it’s possible for individuals to “fix” it in this life. That’s very different from a philosophy that says that something that we did or chose in a past life determines what happens to us in this life. It’s an easy explanation, but it also allows for victim-blaming…heck, it’s _purpose_ is actually victim-blaming…and it’s not something that can be remedied in this life. I confess I don’t see how original sin being “fixable” in this life makes things better - it makes demands on “fixing” that simply living one’s life don’t. And the victim-blaming is still quite in effect. A karmic retribution of the sort you’re talking about is through no choice of the victim. But a believer in original sin could well point to a person - with, as you say, free will - choosing not to “pay back” their debt as compounding it. And I’m highly uncomfortable with the idea that it is a _good_ thing that I am able to make recompense in this life for something someone else did once. It’s sort of like saying I got a parking ticket erroneously credited to me - but don’t worry, I can pay by credit card over the phone! Being more easily able to pay for someone else’s crime is not laudable. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/122 "2015-04-20T18:57:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I was astonished to learn, in this thread, that there are people who say you should be mean or cruel to the lowly, for this is part of their punishment for their actions in a past life. > > I’d always thought the principle was to be kind and generous to the lowly, in order to build up merit for yourself in the next life. > > Being cruel to anyone, for any reason, accrues bad karma. It’s self-destructive to be cruel even to the lowliest beggar or pariah; it increases the chances (if karma is true – I personally don’t believe in it) of coming back as a beggar or pariah yourself. > > Any theological principle is susceptible to mistaken interpretation. (“Prosperity Theology” in Christianity is an example, as in the GD thread on the subject.) I’m pretty sure the Buddha did not intend us to be mean to beggars. The Hindu caste system is not a “mistaken interpretation,” it’s an inherent part of the religion. The reluctance to try to end poverty instead of viewing it as accuring points through noble suffering is DIRECTLY related to the values of the society in which the poverty exists. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/123 "2015-04-21T03:47:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I confess I don’t see how original sin being “fixable” in this life makes things better - it makes demands on “fixing” that simply living one’s life don’t. I’m not a big fan of the whole Original Sin concept, but compared to most reincarnation myths, it at least has a solid populist appeal to it: we’re all sinners equally, regardless of social station, from the king to a beggar. I find that more appealing, and less open to abuse, than the idea that your current social station is a direct reflection of how much you sinned in a previous life. I mean, it’s still a shitty idea, for exactly the reasons you described, but it’s a little less shitty than reincarnation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/124 "2015-04-21T07:54:54Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The Hindu caste system is not a “mistaken interpretation,” it’s an inherent part of the religion. The reluctance to try to end poverty instead of viewing it as accuring points through noble suffering is DIRECTLY related to the values of the society in which the poverty exists. There’s a lot of scholarly debate on this point actually. Recent studies suggest it’s likely that the caste system of India as we know it is an artefact of British colonial rule rather than a truly Hindu/Indian phenomenon ; or rather that the British rigidified and systematized a “system” that used to be mostly informal and loose. The point, of course, would have been to divide and conquer. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/125 "2015-04-21T08:31:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There’s a lot of scholarly debate on this point actually. Recent studies suggest it’s likely that the caste system of India as we know it is an artefact of British colonial rule rather than a truly Hindu/Indian phenomenon ; or rather that the British rigidified and systematized a “system” that used to be mostly informal and loose. The point, of course, would have been to divide and conquer. “Recent studies” on Tumblr, where no non-white person can do anything wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/126 "2015-04-22T09:25:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > And I’m highly uncomfortable with the idea that it is a _good_ thing that I am able to make recompense in this life for something someone else did once. It’s sort of like saying I got a parking ticket erroneously credited to me - but don’t worry, I can pay by credit card over the phone! Being more easily able to pay for someone else’s crime is not laudable. A-fucking-men to THAT. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m not a big fan of the whole Original Sin concept, but compared to most reincarnation myths, it at least has a solid populist appeal to it: we’re all sinners equally, regardless of social station, from the king to a beggar. I find that more appealing, and less open to abuse, than the idea that your current social station is a direct reflection of how much you sinned in a previous life. > > I mean, it’s still a shitty idea, for exactly the reasons you described, but it’s a little less shitty than reincarnation. “Open to abuse” by whom?? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/127 "2015-04-22T09:47:35Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > “Recent studies” on Tumblr, where no non-white person can do anything wrong? Oh, right. Forgot who I was talking to. Or at. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/128 "2015-04-22T10:14:20Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Wait, doesn’t that propose some kind of theology of “original evil”? Like poking a badger with a spoon? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/129 "2015-04-22T11:12:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh, right. Forgot who I was talking to. Or at. Someone who knows literally anything about Asia beyond what he heard in a Beatles song? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/130 "2015-04-22T11:41:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not a big fan of the whole Original Sin concept, but compared to most reincarnation myths, it at least has a solid populist appeal to it: we’re all sinners equally, regardless of social station, from the king to a beggar. I find that more appealing, and less open to abuse, than the idea that your current social station is a direct reflection of how much you sinned in a previous life. > > I mean, it’s still a shitty idea, for exactly the reasons you described, but it’s a little less shitty than reincarnation. It’s a fair point. On the other hand, With reincarnation, you’re not “done” until you’re dead. While there are certainly plenty of sects that would say original sin isn’t a thing that can be done away with in life, there’s enough out there who have some equivalent of considering some people “saved” that means there are outs for them to escape that social equivalency. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539/131 "2015-04-22T11:42:50Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Someone who knows literally anything about Asia beyond what he heard in a Beatles song? Besides the point, but are there Beatles songs that refer to Asia? I’m really not familiar with all their work. The only one I could think of was Back in the USSR, but that doesn’t really mention anything east of Moscow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shirley-maclaine-explains-the-holocaust/712539.md?page=6)