# Shit like this makes me want to disband the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492 "2016-04-30T12:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/1 "2016-04-30T12:26:50Z")
> **[U.S. Military Investigates And Finds Itself Not Guilty Of War Crimes In...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-not-guilty-war-crimes-kunduz-hospital_n_57236ddfe4b0b49df6ab0ada?fb_comment_id=1132900436733043_1133290706694016&comment_id=1132908926732194&reply_comment_id=1133290706694016)** > > The Pentagon says it didn't intend to kill 42 people. If you are on trial, you don’t get to unilaterally declare yourself not guilty. This is not acceptable! First you bomb a hospital full of innocent civilians, then you say to the UN “It’s doesn’t matter because we didn’t mean to do it” We need a full war crimes trial for all involved in this bombing, and to end of our imperialist bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/2 "2016-04-30T13:51:09Z")
May one ask what imperialist goal was served by the attack on the hospital? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/3 "2016-04-30T14:11:46Z")
Invading MSF and taking their oil, duh. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/4 "2016-04-30T14:40:28Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > [U.S. Military Investigates And Finds Itself Not Guilty Of War Crimes In Afghan Hospital Bombing | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-not-guilty-war-crimes-kunduz-hospital_us_57236ddfe4b0b49df6ab0ada?fb_comment_id=1132900436733043_1133290706694016&comment_id=1132908926732194&reply_comment_id=1133290706694016#comments) > If you are on trial, you don’t get to unilaterally declare yourself not guilty. This is not acceptable! First you bomb a hospital full of innocent civilians, then you say to the UN “It’s doesn’t matter because we didn’t mean to do it” We need a full war crimes trial for all involved in this bombing, and to end of our imperialist bullshit. “On trial,” is not a correct model for this situation. It’s absolutely correct to say that no war crime exists because of mistake. That is analogous to the world of criminal law: there cannot be a robbery by mistake either. Or a murder. Now, in criminal law, there is a concept called “manslaughter,” to be sure, which is the charge that can be laid against a person whose criminally negligent mistake causes a death. But so far as I know, there is no such concept in the world of war crimes. So could you explain what you mean? Possible answers are that you don’t believe it was a mistake – that this attack against a hospital was a planned part of our military strategy or a tactical decision by the cognizant command – or that you believe that it was a mistake but that such a mistake is a war crime. Or some other rationale that I missed. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/5 "2016-04-30T14:47:07Z")
If you are accused of manslaughter, can you say"I didn’t mean to do it, end of story" and just walk out of the courtroom? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/6 "2016-04-30T14:54:49Z")
The most shocking thing about this whole tragedy is that **boffking** returned to a thread he started. It’s like I don’t know what is real anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/7 "2016-04-30T15:08:19Z")
In your analogy, the government would be the defense, telling the UN, which is the court, that they did not commit the crime. Why would that be improper? Also, an accidental killing isn’t manslaughter, anyways. That’s the crime of killing without malice. What you seem to be arguing is that the U.S. military was negligent. And, if the UN or whoever wants to argue that, I’m sure they can. I do agree that it doesn’t look good to the Afghans. I would have preferred an independent investigation. But the practicality of that is difficult–as any investigation would require access to military secrets. And I find it very unlikely that we actually bombed a hospital on purpose. What would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/8 "2016-04-30T15:18:32Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If you are accused of manslaughter, can you say"I didn’t mean to do it, end of story" and just walk out of the courtroom? Not in a civilian court, and not in a military court. That’s not what happened here though. By the way, if you’re part of a military organization, subject to military discipline, your incompetence in dealing death and destruction within a militarized zone containing noncombatants can and usually will be dealt with through the military system. As the story you cited in the OP mentions, 16 “unnamed” US service members have been disciplined for the mistakes which resulted in the improper targeting of the hospital. You may not agree, if you were privy to the information at all, with the various forms of discipline exacted, but that’s a different argument. > [@Bricker](#): > > So could you explain what you mean? Possible answers are that you don’t believe it was a mistake – that this attack against a hospital was a planned part of our military strategy or a tactical decision by the cognizant command – or that you believe that it was a mistake but that such a mistake is a war crime. Or some other rationale that I missed. I don’t want to speak for **boffking** here, but I think it’s probably your second option. I get the idea (s)he believes the attack was recklessly planned and/or executed, which is IMO at least a defensible argument, and is somewhat supported by the fact of those 16 separate disciplinary actions. Since _intent_ is not the sole criteria, the level of recklessness might push the incident into legitimate consideration as a war crime. **If** the US were to allow such a prosecution in the first place, that’s probably too steep a hill to prove, given the easily shown tactical importance of the intended and perceived target. This case seems to be another deadly and horrible demonstration of the adage “Never attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity [or incompetence].” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/9 "2016-04-30T16:06:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The most shocking thing about this whole tragedy is that **boffking** returned to a thread he started. > > It’s like I don’t know what is real anymore. Yes, his personal blogging it is so surprising for us to even know he can read the replies to his threads. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/10 "2016-04-30T16:13:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The most shocking thing about this whole tragedy is that **boffking** returned to a thread he started. > > It’s like I don’t know what is real anymore. What will be unreal is if he answers the question asked in post #2. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/11 "2016-04-30T16:15:51Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If you are on trial, you don’t get to unilaterally declare yourself not guilty. The Department of Defense isn’t the defendant in these proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/12 "2016-04-30T17:30:54Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If you are accused of manslaughter, can you say"I didn’t mean to do it, end of story" and just walk out of the courtroom? I think you can be convicted of manslaughter and serve no time. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/13 "2016-04-30T18:33:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “On trial,” is not a correct model for this situation.(snip) > > Now, in criminal law, there is a concept called “manslaughter,” to be sure, which is the charge that can be laid against a person whose criminally negligent mistake causes a death. > > But so far as I know, there is no such concept in the world of war crimes. > [@boffking](#): > > If you are accused of manslaughter, can you say"I didn’t mean to do it, end of story" and just walk out of the courtroom? Irrelevant; apparently you missed the part of **Bricker** ’s post that I quoted above, so I have repeated it for your convenience. You SEEM to be wanting to re-define war crimes to include unfortunate and instantly-regretted mistakes. I think this would diminish the gravity of the concept of war crimes and would therefore not be a good idea. You may, however, have a germ of an idea of a real objection to the process, which is that the US military investigated itself and found itself innocent of evil intent. Personally I don’t believe that the US military had any reason or conceivable motive for intentionally attacking a MSF hospital. But for the sake of appearances it would have been nice to have some disinterested 3rd party to do that investigation. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/14 "2016-04-30T19:01:41Z")
The US Military has _good cause_ to sort this matter out and find what the problem was … hell’s bell the _actual_ Taliban target went unmolested … that’s not a mistake any military should be making simply because the enemy continues to fight. Ya’gotta know we can’t have AC-130’s flying around with defective video transmitters. Someone screwed up and an important target was flat missed. None of this can be made public … systems and equipment involved is all classified … we’re just going to issue some Article 15’s and that’s the end of it. It’s a tragedy, no doubt, but that’s not an excuse to let the Taliban fight more intelligently. War is ugly … and we’ll need the Taliban, Hamas and ISIS’s co-operation to end it … ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/15 "2016-04-30T23:35:01Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > War is ugly … and we’ll need the Taliban, Hamas and ISIS’s co-operation to end it … What incentive would ISIS conceivably have to cooperate with the “Infidels”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/16 "2016-05-01T01:05:35Z")
A better bet might be to prosecute the targeting of the hospital as a breach of the fourth GC, which imposes an affirmative duty upon occupying forces to protect civilian populations. Failure to do so violates the accord regardless of intent, and gets you to the fascinating definitional obfuscations denying that a large military force continuously in residence and supporting a factional government is not an occupying force. So, no help there, really. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/17 "2016-05-01T03:44:57Z")
Thread from 2003. [Why are those hot dogging US jet pilots who killed the Italians not in jail?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=157029) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/18 "2016-05-01T04:02:18Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > A better bet might be to prosecute the targeting of the hospital as a breach of the fourth GC, which imposes an affirmative duty upon occupying forces to protect civilian populations. Failure to do so violates the accord regardless of intent, and gets you to the fascinating definitional obfuscations denying that a large military force continuously in residence and supporting a factional government is not an occupying force. So, no help there, really. In what way is the US an “occupying force”? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/19 "2016-05-01T23:56:43Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > But for the sake of appearances it would have been nice to have some disinterested 3rd party to do that investigation. Could you suggest the name of a disinterested 3rd party that can be trusted to keep US military secrets actually secret through the course of its investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492/20 "2016-05-02T14:18:14Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > [U.S. Military Investigates And Finds Itself Not Guilty Of War Crimes In Afghan Hospital Bombing | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-not-guilty-war-crimes-kunduz-hospital_us_57236ddfe4b0b49df6ab0ada?fb_comment_id=1132900436733043_1133290706694016&comment_id=1132908926732194&reply_comment_id=1133290706694016#comments) > If you are on trial, you don’t get to unilaterally declare yourself not guilty. This is not acceptable! First you bomb a hospital full of innocent civilians, then you say to the UN “It’s doesn’t matter because we didn’t mean to do it” We need a full war crimes trial for all involved in this bombing, and to end of our imperialist bullshit. Your definition of war crimes would dilute the concept of war crimes to the point where we wouldn’t need the term anymore. Accidentally killing innocent civilians is not a war crime. Its fucked up but its not a war crime. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shit-like-this-makes-me-want-to-disband-the-military/753492.md?page=2)