# Shocking parts of jewish religion -- according to Shahak -- Is this true ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2001, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886 "2001-08-24T12:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/61 "2001-08-24T17:59:52Z")
Well, it’s more that you don’t consider the possibility that what he writes may be false. If you’re going to say “What he says is true”, you need evidence from somebody other than him. There’s no rule saying that just because a person says something, it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/62 "2001-08-24T18:00:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baltazar \* > \*\* > WHAT’S WRONG WITH MOST PEOPLE HERE. > > I seems like most of you don’t even considers the option that some of the things Shahak writes may be true. > > . \*\* No, no, no, no, no. You _still_ don’t get it. I don’t consider the possibility of his conclusions being true because I already _know_ that they aren’t. Unless you can show me _corroborative_ evidence that outweighs the years and years I’ve spent immersed in Jewish Study, I’m going to continue to _know_ that his conclusions are spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/63 "2001-08-24T19:19:30Z")
If a certain someone had bothered to do some research he may have found an anecdote offered by Shahak to explain his stance: > [@](#): > > I had personally witnessed an ultra-religious Jew refuse to allow his phone to be used on the Sabbath in order to call an ambulance for a non-Jew who happened to have collapsed in his Jerusalem neighbourhood. Instead of simply publishing the incident in the press, I asked for a meeting with the members of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem, which is composed of rabbis nominated by the State of Israel. I asked them whether such behaviour was consistent with their interpretation of the Jewish religion. They answered that the Jew in question had behaved correctly, indeed piously, and backed their statement by referring me to a passage in an authoritative compendium of Talmudic laws, written in this century. I reported the incident to the main Hebrew daily, Haaretz, whose publication of the story caused a media scandal. > > The results of the scandal were, for me, rather negative. Neither the Israeli, nor the diaspora, rabbinical authorities ever reversed their ruling that a Jew should not violate the Sabbath in order to save the life of a Gentile. They added much sanctimonious twaddle to the effect that if the consequences of such an act puts Jews in danger, violation of the Sabbath is permitted, for their sake.- _Israel Shahak_ So did I find the compelling evidence that I had been asking for since this debate originated in the depths of the pit? Well, at least something worthy of debate, but it takes a great acrobatic leap of hatred to condemn all Jews based on this anecdote. And keep in mind that _is_ an anecdote. There is also quite bit missing from the story. Was the man OK? Presumably, or Shahak would undoubtedly have mentioned it. Did someone else offer to make the call? Would the first person have relented had help not been forthcoming? We simply don’t know. It may be true that _taken literally_, the ancient Talmudic law is xenophobic, but how many take and apply it so literally? I’ll spare everyone the tedium of retelling bible tales that would be disturbing if taken literally. Of note is the fact that modern Israeli law does not distinguish between Jews and gentiles [surprise]. What’s more, placed in it’s proper context in time and location, the gentiles mentioned in the ancient laws were generally at war with the Jewish peoples. Does context matter? Consider this: In York it is _still_ legal to kill a Scotsman with bow… excepting Sundays. Is this an indicator of past hatred? Yes. Is it reason to mistrust the British? No. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/64 "2001-08-24T19:34:58Z")
> [@](#): > > People shouldn’t be to naive about Israel, Sionism and jewish religion (especially Americans shouldn’t be). > > I have never meet any jews. You don’t even see the flaw there, do you? You admit to supreme ignorance of Jews and Judaism, and yet you demand and end to naïvety. _Educate yourself, dammit!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/65 "2001-08-24T20:00:19Z")
Baltazar Maybe you haven’t \>met\< any Jews, but I’ll betcha you’ve eaten more than one kosher item in the last month without even knowing it. [/cackle] eh-eh-eh [/cackle off] ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/66 "2001-08-24T20:11:33Z")
[Haley Joel Osment] I see Jewish people . . . [/Haley Joel Osment] ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/67 "2001-08-24T20:12:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baltazar \* > **I seems like most of you don’t even considers the option that some of the things Shahak writes may be true.** Not quite; we don’t consider that his ideas may be true if _he is the **only** source_ for those claims. Or, to put it another way, I can say that I’m the king of the world and that everyone must obey me, but unless I’ve got something to support that claim _besides my saying so,_ nobody here would believe it. And they shouldn’t. (Not to wander into Pit territory here, but it’s folks like you that test my will in the fight against ignorance…) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/68 "2001-08-24T20:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Or, to put it another way, I can say that I’m the king of the world and that everyone must obey me, but unless I’ve got something to support that claim _besides my saying so,_ nobody here would believe it. And they shouldn’t. > \*\* Well, but Rjung, he wrote a book and all, so… I mean, you know somebody wouldn’t write something unless it were true. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/69 "2001-08-24T20:31:58Z")
I might also add, in light of WAVERLY’s post, that the ultra-Orthodox Jewish Israelis are no more the _only_ example of Jews (or Judaism) than ultra-fundamentalist Christians are the only example of Christians (or Christianity). There are extremely conservative fringes of almost every major religion. The beliefs of such people cannot safely be imputed to everyone else in their religion. So even if Shahak’s theories were correct – and there is no proof that they are – you could not safely apply his conclusions to all of Judaism or all of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/70 "2001-08-24T21:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baltazar \* > I have never meet any jews. And yet, you’ve formed your opinions based on your “observations the last 10-12 years” and that you’ve “gotten less sympathy for them over the last 7-9 year or so).” So what “observations” are you basing your opinions on? Where do you live that, as a 27-year-old, you have never met any Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/71 "2001-08-24T21:49:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baltazar \* > \*\* > WHAT’S WRONG WITH MOST PEOPLE HERE. > > I seems like most of you don’t even considers the option that some of the things Shahak writes may be true. > > . \*\* :eek: What’s wrong with us? Hmmm…if you call condemning anti-Semitism wrong… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/72 "2001-08-24T23:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I seems like most of you don’t even considers the option that some of the things Shahak writes may be true. You have posted one book review from a rabidly anti-Jewish web site with a few quotes that may or may not be in context from a book written by a Jew who has one perspective of the Jewish experience based exclusively on his personal reactions to living in Israel. If you wander over to the [U.S. - The evil empire](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81554) thread you will find several U.S. citizens saying very similar things about the U.S.–and a number of U.S. citizens opposing that sort of position. Based on the “logic” you have thus demonstrated, we must conclude that only the anti-American sentiments are honest and valid while the pro-American sentiments must be merely cover-up of the True American Agenda. You have also claimed that “your experience” confirms the opinions found in the book review, although you have provided no evidence that you have any experience beyond your acknowledgment that you are not (knowingly) acquainted with any Jews. If you would like for this to be a _debate_, or even a _discussion_, then you must provide more for your position than simply claiming that this single book review by an anti-Jewish hate group of a single book by one disaffected Jew provides Truth. I would be willing to accept that several incidents in the book may have occurred (even as Shahak described them). People are no damned good and you can find hatred and despicable actions and beliefs _among_ any group of people. For you to make a substantial argument, however, you need to provide a record of a clear pattern of behavior and thought from more than one source. (I fail to see how the Jews could be plotting the submission of the whole world to their nefarious plots when Jack Chick has assured me that it is the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is so engaged. _There_ is a good “single source” for information. Jack actually claims to have been a Catholic at one time, too.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/73 "2001-08-24T23:45:35Z")
In other words, when you asked in the thread title “Is this true?” the answer is a resounding “No. No, it is not.” It’s clear, my friend, that you have no interest in learning one damned thing here. And I’m sorry for you. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/74 "2001-08-25T00:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > In other words, when you asked in the thread title “Is this true?” the answer is a resounding “No. No, it is not.” I tried to tell him that in the pit (the first thread), but I guess he didn’t listen. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/75 "2001-08-25T01:32:43Z")
Are you kidding me?? What is this ridiclousness? Haven’t you heard of the statement, “If the Jews weren’t busy fighting others, they would fight each other.” And Shahak is a prime example. The Jews would attack each other just as voiceferously, or more, than they attack any other group. I ought to know. I was in a college in which 70% of the students are Jewish. Mmm the backbiting they do on each other and on famous Jewish people still rings in my ears. In my experience, I find them to be highly self-critical, even in areas where they shouldn’t be. I have had the unfortunate experience hearing about Jewish people blaming the Holocaust on their own people, thinking that if they would have done more to work to stem the runaway inflation and misery plaguing Germany during the 1920’s, Hitler and Goebbles would not have risen to power. This is akin to a woman blaming herself for sexually used or abused, because she might have unintentionally turned the assailant on. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/76 "2001-08-25T04:21:23Z")
Acording to Balt’s profile, he’s located in western Europe. I didn’t think it was possible to live there for 27 years and not see a Jew. Then again, depending on the country B’s in perhaps all the Jews are keeping quiet due to pogroms. ``` Baltazar, just what counrty are you in? My entire neighborhood is filled with Jews from western Europe. I'm sure I can find some who came from your country and can supply me with information on the size and visibility of the Jewish population. On a side note- I confess to the Jewish conspiracy. We will take over the world. Every street will be required to hava a kosher deli. The Elders of Zion will end world hunger-bagels, gefilte fish, and brisket will be free for the asking. Barbara Streissand's head will be added to Mt Rushmore. And everyone will be legally required to call their mama once a day. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/77 "2001-08-25T06:58:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baltazar \* > \*\*Perhaps most of what Shahak’s writes are false ? But I don’t really think so. However, I do not buy everything he writes about this issues. > . \*\* Does this mean you’ve gotten around to reading the whole book? ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/78 "2001-08-25T08:29:12Z")
I tell ya, one day I’m finally gonna get around to writing my masterwork, Protocols of the Elders of Des Moines for times just like this. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/79 "2001-08-25T20:05:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > On a side note- I confess to the Jewish conspiracy. We will take over the world. Every street will be required to hava a kosher deli. The Elders of Zion will end world hunger-bagels, gefilte fish, and brisket will be free for the asking. Barbara Streissand’s head will be added to Mt Rushmore. And everyone will be legally required to call their mama once a day. You know, if those are the results of the Jews taking over the world, I can live with it. I’d love to have a kosher deli close by. Heck, I’d settle for a koser deli within 10 miles. I will pass on the gefilte fish, though, and concentrate on the brisket instead. And as long as you’re talking about Barbara Streisand’s _actual_ head, I’m all for that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886/80 "2001-08-25T21:39:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\* 2 The Talmud assures us that all righteous people may share in heaven-Jew, gentile, Invisible-Pink-Unicorn worshippers etc. > > \ > > ``` > On a side note-Izzy would you be willing to start a "Ask The Talmud Guy" thread? ** > > ``` Please do. I am interested in learning more about that bit in the Talmud about Jews being thieves. Also, I was under the impression that Jews didn’t believe in a literal Heaven, and I am curious to know what kind of afterlife they do believe in, if any. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JeffB \* > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > > On a side note- I confess to the Jewish conspiracy. We will take over the world. Every street will be required to hava a kosher deli. The Elders of Zion will end world hunger-bagels, gefilte fish, and brisket will be free for the asking. Barbara Streissand’s head will be added to Mt Rushmore. And everyone will be legally required to call their mama once a day. > > You know, if those are the results of the Jews taking over the world, I can live with it. I’d love to have a kosher deli close by. Heck, I’d settle for a koser deli within 10 miles. I will pass on the gefilte fish, though, and concentrate on the brisket instead. And as long as you’re talking about Barbara Streisand’s _actual_ head, I’m all for that, too. \*\* ROFLMAO! Another perfectly good keyboard destroyed by transnasal coffee. I was going to say, up until the Streisand thing I was going to just passively accept the Jewish takeover, but I wouldn’t stand for that. But with your spin on it, I say it can’t happen soon enough. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shocking-parts-of-jewish-religion-according-to-shahak-is-this-true/77886.md?page=5)