# Shodan and AClockWorkMelon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705 "2010-10-19T21:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/201 "2010-10-22T21:05:16Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You need a drink. Aaaand, I’m fired. Customer isn’t going to tolerate me cracking up like a hyena. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/202 "2010-10-22T21:18:59Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You need a drink. That is an incredibly shitty thing to say to someone in recovery and not even a teeny bit funny. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/203 "2010-10-22T21:30:13Z")
Yeah. Never, ever joke about recovery. It might lead to a bunch of bugs coming out of people’s asses, and I’m not cleaning it up, I tell you that much. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/204 "2010-10-22T21:37:28Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > That is an incredibly shitty thing to say to someone in recovery and not even a teeny bit funny. Did I ever tell you I love reading your posts? No? Well I do. That should soften up the rest of this post quite nicely… If you feel that this topic is above criticism, jokes, ridicule or whatever…why didn’t you voice that the moment you saw it in the pit? Surely you must have known how rough it gets in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/205 "2010-10-22T21:38:46Z")
Recovery is hilarious, if successful. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/206 "2010-10-22T22:02:24Z")
Eh, whatever you guys can live with I guess. I would point out that it is at least worth considering that this may be one of those things that a person who has/is battling addiction can joke about but that it may be in pretty poor taste for others to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/207 "2010-10-22T22:04:28Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > I have no idea why some of you asshats have such a hard-on against AA. What the fuck is pissing you off about it exactly? It has no basis in science? Whoopdi-fucking-do. With an attitude like that, what the hell are you doing in this community? Can’t you find somewhere that your hard-on for woo is embraced instead of derided? > [@Malthus](#): > > You are still wrong. The Study I cited is a meta-analysis. It includes reference to a study showing AA has clear benefits - albeit that the study is considered flawed and not conclusive (as indeed are _all the others_ cited) . > > From the Cochraine analysis: > > > [@](#): > > > > AA may help patients to accept treatment and keep patients in treatment more than alternative treatments, though the evidence for this is from one small study that combined AA with other interventions and should not be regarded as conclusive. My magic rock may cause coins to land face-up more often than face-down, though the evidence for this is from one small study where I tossed six coins on the ground and five of them landed face-up and should not be regarded as conclusive. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > That is an incredibly shitty thing to say to someone in recovery and not even a teeny bit funny. Anyone whose [del]self control[/del] trust in their “higher power” :rolleyes: is \*so tenuous \*that a joke will drive them to drink again doesn’t belong anywhere on the internet. And definitely not in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/208 "2010-10-22T22:11:38Z")
OK, here’s the most recent review I’ve found on AA. It restates the other NIH article that appears to be repeatedly misinterpreted by people who insist on saying that it proved that AA (as opposed to simply committing to some form of long term intervention) is effective. I tried to explain this in my earlier post. To make the case that AA works, you have to show evidence for specificity. This review summarizes that specificity is where AA and other 12 step programs do not have scientific evidence (yet) to support it. When randomized to normalize for “hey, I’m committed to stop drinking” studies are mixed with one showing that AA is actually counterproductive. Here’s some relevant quotes: > [@](#): > > The specificity of the association must be demonstrated. One must be able to rule out other explanations than AA exposure for having led to abstinence. This addresses the concern that those who attend AA are a select sample who would be sober anyway, without ever going to AA. For example, if those who attend AA are highly motivated to do something about their drinking, it could be that this motivation is the cause of their abstinence; it would be unfair to credit AA for their successful outcome. Evidence of specificity ideally requires experimental manipulation of exposure to AA. For example, individuals in a study might be randomized to attend AA or to attend psychotherapy; they do not select their treatment. Because of randomization, motivated people would end up being randomized both to psychotherapy and to AA, so it would not be the case that the “deck was stacked” in favor of AA. If those randomized to attend AA were more likely than those randomized to psychotherapy to be abstinent 2 years later, this would demonstrate an effect specific to AA that could not be due to a selection bias in which only motivated people attend AA. Randomization would also equalize other pre-existing conditions (known and unknown) that might confound AA’s effect. > [@](#): > > What, then, is the scorecard for AA effectiveness in terms of specificity? Among the rigorous experimental studies, there were two positive findings for AA effectiveness, one null finding, and one negative finding. Among those that statistically addressed selection bias, there were two contradictory findings, and two studies that reported significant effects for AA after adjusting for potential confounders such as motivation to change. > **[Alcoholics Anonymous Effectiveness: Faith Meets Science](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2746426/?tool=pubmed)** > > Research on the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is controversial and is subject to widely divergent interpretations. The goal of this paper is to provide a focused review of the literature on AA effectiveness that will allow readers to ... AA may work simply because it is a organization where committed people go and it has a social network of people with experience that can help you out. Long story short, if you want to improve remission rates you need to have a scientific basis for the approach. Find out what exactly “works” within AA and distill it (oops) from all the mumbo-jumbo, counterproductive stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/209 "2010-10-22T22:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=Shot From Guns] …Anyone whose [del]self control[/del] trust in their “higher power” :rolleyes: is \*so tenuous \*that a joke will drive them to drink again doesn’t belong anywhere on the internet. And definitely not in the Pit. [/QUOTE] It isn’t a question of being driven to drink, and I will point out that I am not trying to speak for **gravitycrash**. Think of it like this: You have a poster (in the Pit even) who discloses that he is a cancer patient and had undergone chemo. Is it in good taste to start making bald jokes? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/210 "2010-10-22T22:18:40Z")
Are we talking about the Pit, or are we talking about good taste? Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/211 "2010-10-22T22:24:11Z")
Well, sure, bad jokes. Made one in…let’s see, been a while…I was wearing an onion in my belt, I remember that…so, a long time ago. Come to think if it, it wasn’t me, it was **Vinny**. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/212 "2010-10-22T22:25:39Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Are we talking about the Pit, or are we talking about good taste? Make up your mind. We are talking about both, naturally. I get that this is all rough and tumble and go-hard and that you get some sort of a charge out of waving your e-peen around. Really. Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/213 "2010-10-22T23:11:35Z")
I’d heard that a sardonic sense of humor was _de rigeur_ for recovery alumni. If it isn’t, it sure seems like it oughta be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/214 "2010-10-23T02:43:45Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > It isn’t a question of being driven to drink, and I will point out that I am not trying to speak for **gravitycrash**. > > Think of it like this: You have a poster (in the Pit even) who discloses that he is a cancer patient and had undergone chemo. Is it in good taste to start making bald jokes? It depends on the individual, I guess. I’ll tell you this, though-the next time I’m in a bad way like that, my first stop is going to be The BBQ Pit. I can’t think of anything that would cheer me up more than huge quantities of crassness and bad taste from some of the best in the biz. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/215 "2010-10-23T16:14:19Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > I have no idea why some of you asshats have such a hard-on against AA. What the fuck is pissing you off about it exactly? It has no basis in science? Whoopdi-fucking-do. > Show me fucking hard scientific evidence that love exists. Jack Daniels. QED. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/216 "2010-10-23T20:19:28Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > That is an incredibly shitty thing to say to someone in recovery and not even a teeny bit funny. [Who you gonna call?](http://auditd0rk.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/whaaambulance.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/217 "2010-10-23T22:39:18Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > \*f you want to improve remission rates you need to have a scientific basis for the approach. Find out what exactly “works” within AA and distill it (oops) from all the mumbo-jumbo, counterproductive stuff. I think that’s obvious, but it’s like distilling what “works” with psychotherapy–there are so many variables, that even when someone gets better, you can’t identify it across a group. Moreover, you can’t devise a study which would show this anyway, because you can’t randomly assign someone to AA. Suppose you have 1000 really sleepy people in a big hall, and a lot of coffee, some of it with cream. Seven hundred of those people want nothing other than to go to sleep. 300 people end up drinking some of that coffee. However, 75 of them–for whatever reason–can’t stomach coffee black so they take it with cream. After a certain, unspecified length of time, about 200 people in the big hall start to wake, and leave the big hall. Somewhere else far away, there is a guy from PETA who objects to people drinking coffee with cream, because it’s an animal product. He scrounges around on-line, and comes across a report about the 1000 sleepy people in the big hall, and it says that of those 200 people who left the hall, the same percentage who drank coffee with cream fell back asleep as those who drank coffee black. So the PETA guy proclaims to the world, “CREAM DOESN’T WORK! I HAVE THE FACTS RIGHT HERE. I FOUND IT ON THE INTERNET!” Well, duh, of course the cream doesn’t work to keep you awake, but it does work to get more people to drink the coffee. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/218 "2010-10-23T23:00:22Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > I take strong issue with AA because of it’s completely unscientific treatment of addiction as a ‘disease’. That’s utter nonsense. Addictive behaviors are simply normal reactions to overwhelming stressors. Remove, deal with or learn to accept the stress, relieves the need for self-medicating. So you don’t accept that long-term use of alcohol has demonstrable long-term, if not permanent, effects on brain physiology, particularly neurotransmitters and how they handle serotonin and dopamine? Granted, AA hasn’t come to this conclusion itself, but other research has. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/219 "2010-10-24T06:49:18Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I think that’s obvious, but it’s like distilling what “works” with psychotherapy–there are so many variables, that even when someone gets better, you can’t identify it across a group. > > Moreover, you can’t devise a study which would show this anyway, because you can’t randomly assign someone to AA. Suppose you have 1000 really sleepy people in a big hall, and a lot of coffee, some of it with cream. Seven hundred of those people want nothing other than to go to sleep. 300 people end up drinking some of that coffee. However, 75 of them–for whatever reason–can’t stomach coffee black so they take it with cream. After a certain, unspecified length of time, about 200 people in the big hall start to wake, and leave the big hall. > > Somewhere else far away, there is a guy from PETA who objects to people drinking coffee with cream, because it’s an animal product. He scrounges around on-line, and comes across a report about the 1000 sleepy people in the big hall, and it says that of those 200 people who left the hall, the same percentage who drank coffee with cream fell back asleep as those who drank coffee black. > > So the PETA guy proclaims to the world, “CREAM DOESN’T WORK! I HAVE THE FACTS RIGHT HERE. I FOUND IT ON THE INTERNET!” Well, duh, of course the cream doesn’t work to keep you awake, but it does work to get more people to drink the coffee. The fuck! I was sober _prior_ to reading this! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/220 "2010-10-24T10:57:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Help! Is there a cure for uncontrollable :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: that worked for _somebody_ out there? > > “Your science can’t measure my woo” is an all-time classic dragged out to explain why any given bullshit\* can’t stand up to scientific scrutiny. > \*not a reference to AA, about which I have no opinion. I didn’t say that it was untestable. I said that the experimental method used was insufficient to establish anything. Someone else has already pointed out in the thread one problem–often the people are assigned randomly. Another is what’s being tested: perhaps the only reason AA works is because it adds a social element of acceptance–one that others can get elsewhere. My wording may have been unclear, but my examples were not, so either you intentionally misrepresented me to get an insult off, or, more likely, you didn’t read for comprehension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=12)