# Shodan and AClockWorkMelon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705 "2010-10-19T21:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/241 "2010-10-26T21:19:27Z")
Any of you fuckers have a better idea for how alcoholics can get help? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/242 "2010-10-26T21:22:32Z")
I don’t need to be able to perform a triple lutz to tell you the guy falling on his ass is doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/243 "2010-10-26T21:22:49Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Any of you fuckers have a better idea for how alcoholics can get help? Do you know who else said, “At least we’re doing _something_”? Germany, in the 30’s. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/244 "2010-10-26T21:26:19Z")
Boom! Godwin headshot! ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/245 "2010-10-26T21:27:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Germany, in the 30’s. But only for 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/246 "2010-10-26T21:51:15Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > …As for AA, I think the terms and slogans they use do seem strange at first, but after reading the actual literature (not just the literature of people who are pissed off at AA for whatever reasons), and talking with people who have used it, it’s pretty much based on standard-issue Freudian psycho-analysis. What’s more, they don’t force it on anyone, and AA itself is not a business. Of the people I’ve known in AA, I had no idea they were in AA after knowing them for a while as fairly normal people. They never talk or act like people in a cult. Where are all these AA zombies? I have yet to meet one. Don’t you mean [**Carl Jung**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI)? “Spirituality” as a “cure” for alcoholism is demonstrably a pantload as I am sure you are aware; not that AA ever “cures” anyone as they also make the preposterous claim that alcoholism is an “incurable disease” – despite the also obvious fact that most people who quit and/or temper their consumption, do so outside their Holy Program. Of course, 12 steppers would tell you that those weren’t alcoholics to begin with. :rolleyes: BTW, did you bother to read the OP in your search for AA zombies? > [@sleestak](#): > > …I don’t give a fuck what you think about A.A. I am in rooms with people every week whose lives were saved by A.A. Your opinions don’t mean shit. I’ve read the studies and they don’t mean shit either. There are a bunch of people on this board who got sober through A.A. Mind like a steel trap, always closed. Plenty more examples in the originating thread and this one. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/247 "2010-10-26T21:59:25Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > YMMV But it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/248 "2010-10-26T22:25:46Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Don’t you mean [**Carl Jung**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI)? No. It’s ego, id and superego. It was all the rage in the 30s. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/249 "2010-10-27T00:11:24Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No. It’s ego, id and superego. It was all the rage in the 30s. Did you bother to click on the provided link? Because I insist, Jung’s premise that “spirituality” was the answer to man’s “evil needs” (such as craving alcohol) is the bedrock of AA’s “philosophy.” However if you want to add Freud’s outmoded quackery into the mix…well, thanks for extending my point. Which, if you haven’t noticed by now, is simply that AA is a steaming pile. [**Bill W.'s Correspondence with Carl Jung**](http://www.sober.org/CarlJung.html) > [@](#): > > There is no way–Bill himself found no way–to express what this letter meant to him. It was a confirmation of all that he, with no formal training, no real guidance, through his own intuition had come to believe. It was that and more. It came at a moment in his life when he needed it, only a few weeks after the death in St. Louis of Father Ed Dowling, the man who more than any other had understood his search. (“The divine dissatisfaction, the beautiful unrest that would keep him going, reaching out always . . .” ) > > Ever since his early AA days, when Bill had read Jung’s Modern Man in Search of a Soul, he had looked on the great doctor as not wholly a theologian, nor a pure scientist, but as someone who seemed to stand with him in that strange no man’s land that lay between. **And now he had passed on the formula: spiritus contra spiritum.** > > Bill kept the Jung letter as a talisman. In time it was copied, read at meetings, reprinted in The Grapevine, but the original stayed in his top desk drawer and, sometimes, even though he knew it by heart, he would open the drawer, look down at the signature and reread a phrase. – bolding mine. Barfing optional. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/250 "2010-10-27T11:39:14Z")
Is this a bad time to mention that[even heavy drinkers outlive people who don’t drink at all](http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2014332,00.html)? ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/251 "2010-10-27T12:45:21Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Yes, I see the point, but the assumption that alcoholism is a simple matter of “equilibrium” is an oversimplification. Most alcoholics start drinking during (often before) adolescence, when the brain is going through significant physiological changes. While it starts as a “coping” mechanism (obviously it isn’t really coping), normal pyscho/social/biological development is retarded, sometimes severely. Both the brain and the psyche are effectively damaged, to the point where simple will-power is not going to bring about immediate normalcy. A 40-year-old alcoholic is usually a person who is emotionally about 16, and whose brain-receptors are never going to heal completely, and to what degree they do heal will take a lot more than just an intellectual understanding of reward systems. You can’t just “think” yourself out of alcoholism. I’m not going to look up specifics but I suspect this is an exaggeration and is not convincing. Especially the part where brain receptors never heal completely. Brain receptors don’t heal. They turn over. Even neurons can be replenished and the brain can be remodeled even in adulthood. Furthermore, the amount of neuronal cell death is low even during binge drinking. I think that study came out in Science a year or two ago. Of course, healing won’t happen with just an intellectual understanding of reward systems but professionals shouldn’t be teaching bullshit either. Habits are not conscious efforts (obviously) but they can be changed with reconditioning through repeated anti-addiction strategies. This is the positive part of AA. It actually does require “thinking” and repeated "thinking"and acting until the habit is broken. So, yes, you have to “think” yourself out of alcoholism. There’s no other way. But the first “thinking” step is the realization that the behavior has more drawbacks than rewards. The vast majority of our activities and thought processes are ‘subconscious’. We usually become aware of something much later than our response. Even quite a bit of problem solving is only semiconscious because we have gone over the motions so many times before. It’s only during a eureka moment or going into completely new territory when we are really conscious. People like to think we are rational beings but the more we learn about the brain, the more we realize how rare we are actually thinking and acting rationally. What I like about programs like SMART recovery is that it really does take away all the supernatural and victimization bits and allows a person to take control (with help from others) of their situation through targeted practice techniques. You practice “thinking rationally” until it becomes subconscious. I actually stumbled on it and used it to help me manage anger and anxiety caused by a high stress job. I didn’t abuse substances but some of my behaviors had hallmark features of natural but unproductive ‘self-medicating’. I also found zen buddhist meditation to be helpful but I disregard all the supernatural stuff. It changed my perspective so much that I no longer need to practice regularly (although I’ll go back to them when things get especially rough). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/252 "2010-10-27T15:20:02Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No. It’s ego, id and superego. It was all the rage in the 30s. Maybe AA could step it up and start balancing the four humors of their members. Bonus points if you stock leeches next to the coffee. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/253 "2010-10-27T15:42:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > … “spirituality” was the answer to man’s “evil needs” (such as craving alcohol) is the bedrock of AA’s “philosophy.” To the degree that AA helps anyone, I don’t think it is the “spirituality.” It’s just group support–that’s all. The founders might have used those terms in the beginning, but that’s not what keeps people sober today. They don’t crave alcohol because they’re “evil”; it’s because they’re head’s screwed up. The people I know who have benefited from AA don’t talk about spirituality at all. I guess they just brush that off, but if it rubs you the wrong way so much, you can try something like SMART, which doesn’t have any of the spirituality talk. Whatever it takes. > [@heatmiserfl](#): > > …the first “thinking” step is the realization that the behavior has more drawbacks than rewards. The vast majority of our activities and thought processes are ‘subconscious’. We usually become aware of something much later than our response. That’s true, and I’m sure that change of thinking is a necessary part, but a serious alcoholic will drink despite this–it’s not sufficient. They rationally know what damage it causes, and still they drink. For some people, the sense of group solidarity is what keeps them from acting on the impulses, not rational thought. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/254 "2010-10-27T17:58:42Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Maybe AA could step it up and start balancing the four humors of their members. Bonus points if you stock leeches next to the coffee. And have them sign The Hippocrytical Oath. Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/255 "2010-10-27T18:08:15Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > To the degree that AA helps anyone, I don’t think it is the “spirituality.” It’s just group support–that’s all. The founders might have used those terms in the beginning, but that’s not what keeps people sober today. They don’t crave alcohol because they’re “evil”; it’s because they’re head’s screwed up. The people I know who have benefited from AA don’t talk about spirituality at all. Well then, I don’t know what the fuck they are doing in AA in the first place. Because there’s simply no way to avoid the spiritual angle if they’re in it. Unless of course, they’re into pretzel logic and mental gymnastics. Or nuts. Or both. > [@](#): > > …but if it rubs you the wrong way so much, you can try something like SMART, which doesn’t have any of the spirituality talk. Whatever it takes.That’s true, and I’m sure that change of thinking is a necessary part, but a serious alcoholic will drink despite this–it’s not sufficient. They rationally know what damage it causes, and still they drink. For some people, the sense of group solidarity is what keeps them from acting on the impulses, not rational thought. What rubs _me_ the wrong way is woo in any of its myriad of manifestations. Likely the main reason I joined a place dedicated to “Fighting Ignorance” in the first place. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/256 "2010-10-27T18:24:01Z")
Yeah, but you can’t touch \*this \*woo, because then you’re an _ignorant asshole_. Because \*this \*woo is important to important people, so that makes it exempt from our normal standards of skepticism and logic. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/257 "2010-10-27T18:51:23Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > To the degree that AA helps anyone, I don’t think it is the “spirituality.” It’s just group support–that’s all. The founders might have used those terms in the beginning, but that’s not what keeps people sober today. They don’t crave alcohol because they’re “evil”; it’s because they’re head’s screwed up. The people I know who have benefited from AA don’t talk about spirituality at all. I guess they just brush that off, but if it rubs you the wrong way so much, you can try something like SMART, which doesn’t have any of the spirituality talk. Whatever it takes.That’s true, and I’m sure that change of thinking is a necessary part, but a serious alcoholic will drink despite this–it’s not sufficient. They rationally know what damage it causes, and still they drink. For some people, the sense of group solidarity is what keeps them from acting on the impulses, not rational thought. Looks like we have different definitions of words and I can’t seem to make my points. Your definitions of disease and thinking are different from mine. I’m talking about an epiphany where you gain real insight and are motivated to act because now you ‘intuitively’ perceive alcoholism as a threat to your survival or survival of progeny. All of that is ‘thinking’ to me. This is a big factor in AA (I’m so and so and I’m an alcoholic). ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/258 "2010-10-27T18:58:43Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, but you can’t touch \*this \*woo, because then you’re an _ignorant asshole_. Because \*this \*woo is important to important people, so that makes it exempt from our normal standards of skepticism and logic. It has been shown pretty clearly in this thread that logic is no part of the people that have a hard-on for AA. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/259 "2010-10-27T19:15:57Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > It has been shown pretty clearly in this thread that logic is no part of the people that have a hard-on for AA. Because seeking logic is the least logical thing you can possibly think of? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/260 "2010-10-27T19:35:29Z")
Not following you. Can you be more specific? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=14)