# Shodan and AClockWorkMelon **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705 "2010-10-19T21:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/41 "2010-10-20T02:12:14Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > But stop saying “it just does not work”. It has and does work for many who attend. To outright say “it just doesn’t work” is absurd. Not for everyone.. but for some it has and does indeed work. > To attack the fact that AA has helped many stay sober as simply evidence of the anecdotal kind is borderline trolling. Jesus fucking Christ, what is with these anti-science assholes? Look, douche-bag, if 5% of alcoholics quit on their own every year without assistance, then the fact that 5% of AA attendees quit isn’t evidence that the program works. What the fuck is wrong with people that they can’t understand this simple fact? Hell, if you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to read some of the posted links, there have been studies that showed that AA attendees did worse then people who went it on their own. Actual scientific evidence that AA is harmful! But thanks so much for your valuable anecdotal evidence anyway, moron. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/42 "2010-10-20T02:17:42Z")
Don’t keep that all bottled up inside, it curdles your _chi._ ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/43 "2010-10-20T02:19:52Z")
AA? Chi? Do you believe in feng shui, too? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/44 "2010-10-20T02:22:08Z")
No, but I’m adept at Cringing Mantis Kung Fu. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/45 "2010-10-20T02:24:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Don’t keep that all bottled up inside, it curdles your _chi._ My homeopathic anger management ointment doesn’t seem to be working. Which is weird 'cause lots of people recommended it. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/46 "2010-10-20T02:25:23Z")
Funnily enough, anger management doesn’t work, either. And I’m surprised. Your horoscope said you’d be calm and balanced today. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/47 "2010-10-20T02:26:46Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Funnily enough, anger management doesn’t work, either. I wouldn’t want to be there when the participants figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/48 "2010-10-20T02:29:16Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I wouldn’t want to be there when the participants figure that out. [That would be bad.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=582364) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/49 "2010-10-20T02:47:32Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > [That would be bad.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=582364) > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I wouldn’t want to be there when the participants figure that out. You wouldn’t like them when they’re angry. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/50 "2010-10-20T03:02:34Z")
**Evil Economist** are you claiming that AA has helped some people quit drinking because those people don’t believe in science? That maybe if they had only seen the statistics, the program wouldn’t have worked for them? An organized support group can’t be likened to a placebo. Whatever it takes is what it takes concerning something like beating an addiction - inheritance/genetic, environmental, emotional and psychological factors are involved that are often beyond the bounds of science. Everyone’s different. And what might work for one person might not work for another, and visa versa. AA has helped a lot of people quit booze, take it or leave it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/51 "2010-10-20T03:11:59Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > Everyone’s different. And what might work for one person might not work for another, and visa versa. AA has helped a lot of people quit booze, take it or leave it. Okay, see if you can follow this: You have a lucky rabbit’s foot. With it you can predict coin flips fully 50% of the time. But it turns out that without it you still can predict coin flips 50% of the time. Is the rabbit’s foot doing anything? Think about this hard. It’s important to understand this before you start debating stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/52 "2010-10-20T03:21:24Z")
Lobohan, if you’d kindly quote my entire post instead of just the few lines you’ve selected, _you_ might not see the absurdity of your analogy and that it in no way applies here. But perhaps others reading this thread might have the chance to. Or is this simply your sleazy and dishonest style of “debating stuff”? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/53 "2010-10-20T03:27:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Finally finally, I point out that, anecdotal vs. testing doesn’t mean that the anecdotes are wrong. It means that the way it works isn’t applicable to the experimental method. Help! Is there a cure for uncontrollable :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: that worked for _somebody_ out there? “Your science can’t measure my woo” is an all-time classic dragged out to explain why any given bullshit\* can’t stand up to scientific scrutiny. \*not a reference to AA, about which I have no opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/54 "2010-10-20T03:30:13Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > Lobohan, if you’d kindly quote my entire post instead of just the few lines you’ve selected, _you_ might not see the absurdity of your analogy and that it in no way applies here. > But perhaps others reading this thread might have the chance to. > > Or is this simply your sleazy and dishonest style of “debating stuff”? I’m not sleazy and dishonest. You’re saying that AA helps people, take it or leave it. I’m saying, if the evidence show it’s no better than chance it doesn’t. I clipped your quote because your ignorant prattle wasn’t necessary except for the moronic little snippit I showed above. It boils down to facts and data. That some people squeal and love their AA, I’m sure is true. But if it’s no better than chance not only is it worthless, it’s utterly and irrevocably wrong. Isn’t one of the tenets of AA that the alcoholic is powerless? They for a fact are not if as many people quit the demon-rum without any help than with. That just makes them your run-of-the-mill bullshit worthless social group. Look, I’m not saying you’re a vapid stooge, I’m just saying you’re sounding like a proponent of homeopathic medicine here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/55 "2010-10-20T03:52:13Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > **Evil Economist** are you claiming that AA has helped some people quit drinking because those people don’t believe in science? That maybe if they had only seen the statistics, the program wouldn’t have worked for them? All your questions can be answered at the following link: [http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html](http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html). Warning, answers involve science, not cute anecdotal stories. Note that this link has been posted to this thread already. > [@](#): > > Whatever it takes is what it takes concerning something like beating an addiction - inheritance/genetic, environmental, emotional and psychological factors are involved that are often beyond the bounds of science. Beyond the bounds of science, huh? Listen, _science_ is a secret code word. It means _critical thinking_. Something that is beyond the bounds of science is bullshit sold by stupid people. > [@](#): > > AA has helped a lot of people quit booze, take it or leave it. I’ll leave it, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/56 "2010-10-20T06:21:40Z")
Pick whichever “science” you want. [Counter Arguments to the Viciously Biased Anti-AA site, The Orange Papers](http://www.green-papers.org/) ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/57 "2010-10-20T09:18:03Z")
Wow, I thought I’d lurked long enough to know all the hot button topics on this board, but AA? That’s a new one on me. Out of interest, **the lone cashew** , do you believe alternative medicine works? Acupuncture? Homeopathy? I know a few people, personally and professionally, that quit drinking without using AA. Would they have called themselves alcoholics? I don’t know. But they felt they should stop drinking for whatever reason so I think it’s a fair comparison. I don’t know how AA class ‘successes’, if the poser up-thread sent to AA for having weed had also stopped drinking (or just didn’t drink) is that a tick in the box for AA? Anyway, are my anecdotes less valid that yours? I’m not arguing for either side, I have personal doubts about AA but I’ve not researched it so I’m not willing to pick a side here. But saying it worked for Jim, Bob and Jill is not a good argument for anything. And, given the mission of this board, anyone using it is an argument for anything should rightfully be called on it. Although not necessarily with as much colourful language as **Evil Economist** is using. Question for anyone that knows (I know I could Google it, but I’m supposed to be working) – is AA state funded in the US? SD ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/58 "2010-10-20T12:08:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Out of interest, the lone cashew, do you believe alternative medicine works? Acupuncture? Homeopathy? I certainly don’t believe in Homeopathy. Acupuncture - don’t know much about. But those things are not akin to what we are talking about here. If only beating an addiction like booze were as simple as taking a prescribed pill.. A person deciding to see a Psychologist is more analogous to an organized support group. Some people benefit from seeing some kind of shrink while others do not. People can choose to not drink. Some people have more difficulty making the behavioral choice not to - due to many often overlapping factors - inheritance/genetic, environmental, emotional makeup, etc. An organized support group can help certain individuals choose on their own to quit drinking and stay away from it. Beating an addiction like booze is an individual thing, some people cannot seem to beat it no matter what course they take, others are able to quit without an organized program. To state percentages (that may or may not be correct percentages) to discredit a program like AA fails to acknowledge whether an individual might benefit from such a program. It’s not as simple as flipping a coin, it just depends on the makeup and many factors concerning the individual. A person attempting to quit booze should consider at least giving AA a try. Then after attending at least several times, if they don’t feel that it’s their style - if they don’t feel it might help them choose to abstain from booze, try something else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/59 "2010-10-20T12:20:16Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > Pick whichever “science” you want. > > [Counter Arguments to the Viciously Biased Anti-AA site, The Orange Papers](http://www.green-papers.org/) From that site: > [@](#): > > So when Agent Orange quotes someone that “…there is a paucity of scientific studies supporting the superior effectiveness of AA,” what he forgets to mention is that there is also not much research showing AA does not work. Ow. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705/60 "2010-10-20T13:13:07Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > A couple flawed studies certainly don’t mean shit. There are also studies showing that AA does help. > > [Linky](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1976118/?tool=pmcentrez) > > Slee You link is not evidence for AA, it is evidence for recognizing alcoholism and actively seeking support. The OP in the other thread mentioned being uncomfortable with AA. You don’t think it’s irresponsible to push AA on someone who doesn’t feel comfortable about it? What would you predict the success rate would be for people who don’t fit into AA’s sometimes strict mold? I’d like to see a study on that. IOW, I think you’re the one being irresponsible here, not **Clockwork**. As far as I know, studies have shown that individual therapy (typically cognitive behavioral therapy) combined with general support groups shows significantly more improvement (I can find cites this evening if you wish). I take strong issue with AA because of it’s completely unscientific treatment of addiction as a ‘disease’. That’s utter nonsense. Addictive behaviors are simply normal reactions to overwhelming stressors. Remove, deal with or learn to accept the stress, relieves the need for self-medicating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shodan-and-aclockworkmelon/557705.md?page=4)